Normal Range’s

 For 9mm,.380 and .45.

 Is it to much to asak for a good 25 yard self defence pistol ? Is this not the norm for these things. I can hit all day long with my revolvers not so for my autos. 25 steps maybe.

Tika, I'm the same way.  44 mag, 357 wheel gun and the 25 yard groups are tight.  Even the 50 yard targets are decent.  I hunt with a T/C contender in 375.  I've killed 8 deer over 85 yards with that gun longest was about 140 yds.

But give me an auto and bad stuff happens.  I sold the first 1911 I owned cause I couldn't hit at 5 yards like my revolvers.  My 9mm and my 32s are similar.

Most of the guys at the range shooting autos (you can't hunt with an auto in my state) are shooting 5 yards.  Even at that range I don't see a lot of good groups, even when it is police day.  Target bulls are a lot smaller than body silhouettes at 5 yards.

True for self defense you should only be shooting 20 foot or so, and that means any gun any group will be fine.  I use to say since most purps buy a handgun and never shoot it, just standing still is good defense if the guy is over 10 yards, as he will most likely miss you.

BEAR

I took the Taurus (45acp) bowling today,  it's a kick.  They had a table setup, 4x8 about waist high, five pins set at front edge, about 15yds out.  You had to knock pin off table, it was easy enough to knock them over, but to knock them off table you had to hit them just right or shoot them again after you had knocked them over, much harder.  They've been having shoots monthly, I've always been working when they were on.  I think I may have to burn up some rounds on this, mighty fun.

RC

RobertMT wrote: Looks good enough to be plenty deadly to me. RC

+1

I wouldn't want that to be my "center of mass'......

Slow fire group shooting don't make sense for SD.  I do it, once in a while just for sh!ts and giggles, but rapid fire into multiple targets is the only real test of SD ability.  Unfortunately, the closest range to me has only 25, 50, and 100 yard distances.  No targets are allowed to be placed at closer distances.  That sucks.  Shooting two clips rapid fire at 25 yards is one of my approaches, as well as shooting two clips into 4 different targets.  But, I'm afraid it's not as good as having multiple targets at different distances and being able to MOVE while shooting.  You know, by moving, you lose only 10% of your ability to hit your target but someone shooting back loses 40% of their ability to hit you.  Training on the move is very helpful.

Another aspect of training addresses the close quarters issue.  Awareness and active threat management can help keep targets away from you, and proper draw technique can allow accurate shooting to occur at close range.  I had a tough time breaking the "fly casting" draw, getting my hand to stay close to my rib cage until AFTER the pistol is pointed at the target.  For some reason, my natural tendency was to point the muzzle upward, bringing it down into alignment with the target.  Not much good in close quarters.

I watched some of my classmate cops deal with advancing threats, and they made it clear that you can talk to someone while moving with your hand on your pistol just as easily as you can while allowing them to get way too close.  Getting jumped from behind by a 2nd threat also becomes more difficult while you're moving.

I'm by no means an expert, but I see how proper training and good habits can assist in making a confrontation statistically more surviveable.  Bullseye shooting don't help much in that regard.