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guys - let’s take a serious look at this

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TasunkaWitko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasunkaWitko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: guys - let’s take a serious look at this
    Posted: 12 June 2008 at 05:53

gentlemen -

it has come to my attention through a few members that we have a serious problem, one that is directly affecting the growth and participation on this board. the problem can be summed up in the words of one of them members:

Quote My 13-year-old daughter is taking an avid interest in the outdoors, but it is difficult for her to navigate around BSB when she has to read posts where grown men swear like sailors on shore leave in Shanghai.

another member was more direct:

Quote My 10 year old nephew likes to read the forums with me, and I find the language too offensive for a 10 yr old at baitshopboyz....I hear that language at work, and I don't want to read it when I get home.

a third fellow appealed for some intellectual high ground:

Quote Men who presume to own firearms, and also exercise the self-discipline needed to load and shoot them accurately, should be able to make their case without resorting to vulgarities and childish name-calling.

now, BSB has always been a place where folks could freely discuss issues and engage in strong debates about their opinions. i am a firm believer in the concept that free discussion encourages the best environment to learn, and i would do nothing that would inhibit that. BSB members have always felt comfortable in saying what is on their minds without having to look over their shoulder for a "hall monitor." the overriding philosophy has always been "toughen up, buttercup," and i believe that if a person cannot handle a strong challenge to his opinion, then perhaps his position deserve a second, introspective look. i have always viewed any repression of such a free environment to be censorship, except in the most extreme, obvious cases.

having said all that, i cannot really disagree with the above comments, and will go a step further and admit that in many cases, i have been one of the worst offenders. as the father of four boys (three of them teenagers), this got me to thinking about the example that is being set and the lost opportunities to help new or younger outdoorsmen and women; i believe it would be a real shame if we lost good members and good mentors and especially good future outdoorsmen and women because of some salty language or petty arguments.

with that in mind, i have a series of proposals to make and ask that all members consider them seriously.

1  the forum software has a "language filter" that can take "certain words" and turn them into asterisks or whatever. anyone reading the post would obviously get the gist of what the poster is trying to say, but at the same time, would not have to have the offensive words staring them in the face.

2  in a forum such as ours, and especially with the world situation being what it is, there is always going to be some discussion of politics, religion and other "untouchables," and arguments are going to crop up. what i ask is that these be confined to the BSB roll call, which is probably where they belong anyway. also, if a member is going to post anything that might be deemed offensive, please include in the subject line a warning or "rating" (pg-13, r etc.).

finally, we might all take a serious look at the concept of the "front porch discussion," which is of course along the same lines as the "campfire discussion:"

Quote

[we are] a loose-structured, tight-knit group of folks from all over the world who have adopted a casual 'front porch get-together' climate for discussions.  If you've never participated in a front porch meeting before, here's the way it usually works.  Generally, at the start, serious topics are discussed in depth and at length with many varying opinions, pro and con, thrown out for whatever they are worth....

With any front porch gathering, there's always assorted types of folks from 'very verbal' to 'quiet and reserved', and so it is with the BBQ List.  Some posters you like, some you respect, some you tolerate, some you wish would go away and some you hardly even know are there.  The single most important thing gluing the front porch session together is that everybody stepping up on the porch is there because they have something in common and want to be there. Listening, learning, participating and tolerating who and what you don't like is what it's all about. These are the things that make the front porch meeting work.  So, come on up and grab a chair.

As with any [discussion group], there are certain courtesies to which all subscribers should adhere.

1  We are all friends here.  There should be no posts that are insulting or degrading to any members....

2  When someone does post an insulting or degrading message, it's best just to ignore it.  What often happens is that the post is responded to and a flame war...ensues. This...does nothing but make people mad and hurt feelings....

3  There are women and kids [here], so all posts should be respectful of that audience.

4  Remember, we're here to have some fun and to share information....

this all makes sense to me, and i ask you all to give it some serious consideration and invite everyone to discuss this issue so that we can give it some sincere vetting and come up with a solution.

i, for one, do not like the idea of losing members over something that we can fix so easily, especially when the offended members make a good case, which is the whole point of free and open discussions. this does not in any way mean that members need to worry about people looking over their shoulder and come down on them if they slip and post something "wrong," and it certainly doesn't mean that a new era of censorship is upon us; however, i don't think it's unreasonable, especially in an environment where we want to preserve our outdoor traditions for future members, to ask that folks exercise some common courtesy and manners.

thanks to all for reading this and taking it seriously; i look forward to the discussion and invite all members to air their feelings on this.

ron

TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2008 at 08:48

 I never noticed!

 hope it wasn't me !!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2008 at 14:04

Taz;

I really hadn't noticed the problem.  In all honesty, I don't think its all that prevalent on the forum.  By all means, make Roll Call an entry-only forum, ie read the disclaimer & agree before enty is granted by the site.  Then get strict about profanity elsewhere on site.  However, at that point, joke of the day becomes a sub-set of Roll Call, can't work any other way. 

Or, the site becomes the property of the G-O-B society & all others take it as they find it, or leave.  And I obviously have nothing against that, since it's pretty much the way the site works now.  We don't have all that many members given the age of the site, but the one's we do have seem to be able to get along & much valuable information is put forth.

900F

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2008 at 15:46

I say put disclaimer on roll call and joke of the day.  Leave the rest as is.  I think, we all can use appropriate language. 

I agree with the flame wars part though, I have left or seldom visit several other forum sites because of it.  I have only noticed it here, a couple of times and it died out pretty quick anyway. 

As far as the salty language, I guess, I never noticed any, some jokes have been PG or R rated at most.  Some may just have a low tolerance for any off color language, even what most would consider mild.  Maybe we could have G rated joke section along with the other forums.

I agree that we need to get the kids involved, they are the future of our sport. 

RC



Edited by RobertMT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2008 at 17:22
 This site is far and away the cleanest, for a lack of a better word, that I've encountered. Obviously there are exceptions. I also believe this is NOT the problem regarding growth and particpation. Try to cater to children and then you'll really see numbers go down the crapper. I have nothing against kids but this isn't a kids site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2008 at 02:02

I think we are a very good site.  Can't say that for many I drop in on once and awhile.

I think reasonable courtesy is here on the site now.  sure occasionally some one gets off on a flame, but not very often.

I'd hate to see any monitoring or censor ship on BBS.  I go on one site and they have a woman/mother censor everything...it stinks.

Two thoughts on the kids: 

One as someone said, this isn't a kid site.  An I for one will be gone if it changed to than.

Second, many of us have kids.  If you know kids today, the language in school, on the buss, and with friends is 10 time (yes, 10x) worse than anything on this site.  If people think the language on here is "bad for kids", I'd suggest they are out of touch with todays kids.  Look at the language on cable, rock songs, schools, etc.  If anything we are a moderating force in the average kids language.

I think this is a non-problem.  Ron, you have four boys, and never thought of our language as bad?  We had a young person here for quite a while, NH.  I can only think of one incident where he was not treated with courtesy, and then it was handled instantaneously by the members.  I like to think he grew up with BBS. 

BEAR 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deaddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2008 at 02:29

One of my most vivid childhood memories is of how close to death I came after my mom got done with me after my sister came home and let loose a tripple F#@^ bomb sentence. She was three and I was seven. She picked it up from my buddies.  I would fling it around but never in front of my parents or any elder. My mom thought different. This incident was nearly 40 years ago. If you think kids are any more naive today you are living in a hole. I'm not saying I knew what all of the nasty language meant but I had been exposed to it somewhere.  Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet so I didn't get it off a computer. You can try and shelter your kids but I say "good luck" I have two kids and very seldom swear in front of them but with cable TV in the house you can only be so effective as a censor. As you all know nearly any search engine you employ will spit out a porn site eventually. I find this much more incideous than any errant wiff of profanity that sneaks in here every so often. I find the group of people that hang here far more patriotic than your average sample of the public. I think they probably believe in free speach also. Even though they may not like what is being said.

As my 6 mo. old Niece once said "goo goo ga ga doo doo"

The translation from baby talk is much too offensive to be printed here?

DD

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeffnvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2008 at 05:24
maybe i'm different than everyone else, but on occasion a subject or topic that i get a little intense about, warrants a little colorful language (like fuel prices). i rarely resort to typing the exact word or phrase without a bleep in there, but everyone gets the idea. i understand the concern for young eyes and minds being impressionable and the importance of maintaining a thread of common decency when it comes to postings in a forum that may be occasionally read by youngsters. however, i seriously doubt that there are large numbers of young folks frequenting this site and i (as a parent) for one am tired of always having to consider the kids first. i mean the majority of my paychecks, my time and my energy is for those kids. there are myriad occasions i shortchange my wants and needs for the sake of my kids and for the most part my kids have become good students, citizens and responsible teenagers in a time when many are not, but aren't we as adults entitled to some places that are sacred to being an adult?? at ten, a kid should be outside riding his/her bike, playing baseball or even HUNTING. sitting at a computer reading a forum is not what your average kid is doing or wants to be doing. MOST play video games or check out the Disney site etc. let's get real people, you cannot be politically correct 100% of the time!! i strongly believe that this is one of the things that is seriously wrong with this country. people need to quit spending so much time and energy worrying what everyone else is gonna think, make some real decisions in life and get on with it!! we can't even have a war anymore without considering the worlds opinion. WE WERE ATTACKED!! more people died in the attack on 9/11 than at pearl harbor. this is for another story, but you should get my drift. isn't enthusiasm what you are trying to build here? to get people involved, someone has to get passionate and in order to get passionate you might have to take a stand and actually have something to say! find the kids another site that has money to lose by offending a few people like real tree outdoors or something for your kids to check out. they really only want you to buy their stuff anyway so leave an adult public forums to adults and get over it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saddlesore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2008 at 02:22

I have not noticed that much offensive language compared to other sites.I think it is a non problem.

 I think too many consider that thier little Johnny or Mary have not heard any of those words before. For those, I say go and spend a day at elementary school. I have heard 9 yr olds us eteh F word like a sailor.

You can have an adult site or a child site. One has to decide.

They sure as heck are going to hear those words in deer camp or at job sites.

I'd say " TOUGHEN UP BUTTERCUP" are still the operative words.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gary murray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2008 at 06:31
I haven't seen any profanity since i've been a member of BSB. Even when a couple of our members have arguments (not mentioning any names as we know who) they don't even use profanity. I for myself would like to see these posts that these people are complaining about. I'm sure Tas or any other administrator would edit it or delete it if they thought it was offensive as i know that Tas does read pretty much every post that is written. Anyhow i said my piece and now i'm going back to watching my cartoon shows.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gary murray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2008 at 06:42
Originally posted by saddlesore saddlesore wrote:

I have not noticed that much offensive language compared to other sites.I think it is a non problem.

 I think too many consider that thier little Johnny or Mary have not heard any of those words before. For those, I say go and spend a day at elementary school. I have heard 9 yr olds us eteh F word like a sailor.

You can have an adult site or a child site. One has to decide.

They sure as heck are going to hear those words in deer camp or at job sites.

I'd say " TOUGHEN UP BUTTERCUP" are still the operative words.

I totally agree with you Saddle. I heard those words when i was knee high cause my dad was a sarge in the army and when he came home he didn't leave those words at the office. Nowadays kids use the words like it's part of the A.B.C.s just like you said. There is no way that these parents are ever going to shield their kids from hearing the words. You could be walking them to school and a guy and girl could be having a loud argument and cursing at each other from across the street. I also don't know too many couples that haven't had an argument and used the words in front of their kids even if it just slips out or they think the kids are fast asleep. I still would like to see the posts in question that are getting beat on.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2008 at 11:34

Fella's;

I'm also kinda wondering just where the complaint(s) came from.  It's entirely possible that something came in like this:  "I looked at your site with the idea of joining but found very offensive language and decided to pass".  In many cases these are net-nannies who are trying to make the entire world peachy-keen safe for the children.  Ergo, they're not honest prospective members of this site, they're trolls.

My disrespect for trolls know no bounds & is only exceeded by my disdain for the creators of virus's.  Can virus creation be made a capitol offense?  Please!

900F

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saddlesore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2008 at 02:05

I have  favorite saying as to when I get the punies.

"I was so sick and weak I could not have pulled  a sick prositute off a pee pot".

Now insert the not so PC words in there and it gives a very definite discription of  one's conditions. I can't think of a better way to put it.

Somethings just can't be said withot some off color words.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2008 at 06:53

That brings to mind another saying.

Fk um, if they can't take a joke.

RC



Edited by RobertMT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muleskinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 21:49
I find the non-use of foul language to be offensive.  Heck, my wife tells me I can't curse around the grandkid.  Cursing is prohibited at work.  All my buddies have either become church-going snobs or died.  I couldn't curse at the cop who gave me a $130 ticket today for going 70 in a 55, and cursing at the mechanic who screwed me out of an extra $500 for a repair that didn't fix anything is also frowned upon!  Now, you're telling me the one place I can go to cut loose and blow off some steam is going PG?  Hey KP, stop buy so we can hit the bar.  I get funny looks when I go there and curse to myself.

Edited by Muleskinner
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 00:22
 Mule, that's what you get when you become a bonafide urbanite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Igbo Foo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 05:11

Well there guys, an aspersion has been cast!  I can tell, and a deadly missle it is too. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 05:26

sounds to  me like the group is in agreement.

 

Try to keep it respectful, but on occasions when useful "colorful language is acceptable".  But we don't want a wave of deletable expletives!Confused

Or said another way...just like it has been.

BEAR

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 08:25

I agree 100%. 

RC

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasunkaWitko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 16:04

well, i gave it a week to hear from everyone, and took a look around in some old posts. i'll agree that we get some pretty strong opinions here, but it didn't seem like anything was too out of line. i want to thank everyone who took this topic seriously and offered their opinions and thoughts on the matter, and if anyone has been sitting on the fence or the sidelines and wants to say anything, please feel free to do so.

i do want to say that the complaints came from members when i sent out a mass-email last week asking folks who hadn't been around in a while to drop in and see some of the changes at BSB. (HINT, if you DIDN'T get an email, then you need to update your email address in the BSB files!) anyway, i did hear some concerns, and wanted to take them seriously and open them up for discussion. i was hoping that some folks who had concerns would voice them here, but i do believe i made their case in a fair and thorough way.

i guess i am also one who is on the fence a bit. i don't think a language filter would hurt anything, but at the same time i didn't see too much need for it. there were a couple of topics here or there that got a little warm, but it wasn't outrageous. i remember some of the old days here and things were pretty wild, but i can't say that is the case now.

i also thing that we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves and, though there are some heated confrontations now and then, most of the time a third party is able to step in and be a voice of reason or break the tension. if there are any cases where this doesn't happen, i hope that anyone involved knows that they can contact an admin member and voice their concerns.

with that in mind, i'll stand firmly on both sides of the issue. i am completely neutral on the language filter and will consider implementing it if there is a serious contingent who wants it so. i think that "controversial" subjects (politics, religion etc.) should be confinded to the BSB roll call unless it is a matter of hunting, fishing or the right to keep and bear arms, which should go in the appropriate forum. i think that personal insults should be highly discouraged but that storng debate and defense of one's posiiton should be encouraged. i think that front porch rules should apply but that if someone is being a true pain in the arse then that person should be dealt with accordingly. i think that we should be considerate of the rights and opinions of others, but keep in mind that "toughen up buttercup" is not always a bad thing.

in short, we should carry on as we have been, with the proposed possible addition of the language filter, and if anyone is having an issue with someone or a group of someones, they should let an admin member know so that we can look at that situation and go from there.

it looks like whoever is going to speak on this has spoken, but i'll leave this topic open for discussion another week, then we'll see where we are.

thanks again to those who took this seriously and took the time to voice their opinions.

TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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