back to basics?

how much velocity does it take to kill a deer, and how tough does the bullet need to be? especially at the distance most are shot from? since when does a deer need to be killed with a partition, TBBC, failsafe or heavy (example, 180-grain in .308) bullet?

because of the notion that "speed kills," it would seem to me that we suddenly "need" these boomers and zoomers, driving pills past 3000, 3500 fps to kill the same deer that our ancestors killed from the same ranges at 2200 fps and under. the bullets, designed for sub-3000fps flight, "fail" when asked to perform at these wild velocities, which necessitates more-heavily constructed "premium" bullets.

all of this leads to notions such as, "the .30/30 is MARGINAL for deer," and "core-lokts and powerpoints just don't work on deer."

for most hunting situations, it seems that the "velocity myth" has propagated the "armored deer myth," leading a lot of people to believe that they NEED to have a .300 WSM armed with 200-grain barnes X bullets for killing coues deer at 60 yards. makes it very hard to believe that people actually used to kill deer with  plain old standard rifles using plain old standard bullets, but it did actually happen......

i'm not saying that this advice is for everyone, but i do believe that if people sat down and made a frank and honest evaluation of their abilities, the hunting that they will be doing and the game that they will be taking, they would opt more often for the same rifles and ammunition that our parents and grandparents used. after all, the .30/06, .270 and .30/30 are all doing pretty well for such "old-time" chamberings!

does this mean that i feel that research and development should ahve stopped after the .270 was "invented?" no way!! this is all simply food for thought......

 

Edited by TasunkaWitko

People that think they need a magnum for deer are misinformed. They're nice for deer if you choose to take longer shots since they shoot a bit flatter. A bullet that holds together at the close shots and still works on the long ones is a good bullet for that round.

For regular deer hunting at 200 yards or less a .308 is plenty. If you're a good shot and have a rangefinder a .308 is all you need to 400+ yards should you choose to shoot that far.

I have a magnum because I'm basically a one gun hunter. I've shot the smallest deer (at 80 yards) and some pretty good sized elk (one at 320 yards)with that gun and wasted no more meat on any of them than I would have with a .308. I firmly believe that's where the Nosler partition and other controlled expansion rounds shine.

i guess my argument is that we have much better equipment than was available back in the day. why use something minimal when something w/ a whole lot more whoop-ass is available? why wonder if you've got enough when if you just slide down the rack one or two slots there's a rifle/cartridge that undoubtedly has enough?

of course, this is has to be taken w/ an ability to filter out the absurd, meaning you obviously don't need a 375 or 416, etc. but if somebody wants to shoot a whitetail w/ his 338 rum or 8mm rem mag and he has practiced enough to be proficient w/ his chosen weapon, why stop him? sure makes more sense than shooting deer w/ a 223 or hornet, etc.

Edited by dakotasin

How fast and how tough? The only answer that I can see is one
I don't think everybody will like or accept. The bullet needs to
be fast enough and tough enough to kill humanely ON THE DEER IN THE
AREA YOU HUNT, AND THAT TYPE OF SHOT YOU MAKE. No more, no less.
My whitetail weigh between 80 and 140 pounds. They are shot at ranges
of 35 to 250 yards. I can kill cleanly with a lot of calibers that might not
work as well under the conditions that some of you fellers hunt in. Round balls
lead bullets work for me, as long as I match the cartridge to the conditions.
Obviously I am not going to carry a '92 Winchester in .38WCF, or a muzzleloading roundball rifle
when I expect to have targets at 150 to 250 yards. If I expect a shot at less than 50 yards,
I am not gonna carry a 7mm or .300 Mag.
We argue about whitetails, and rifles, and ammunition, and bullets, scopes, clothing, etc, because that
is what hunters do!

Oh boy, here we go again    

Seems like this is a topic that keeps poppin up on more than one forum.  No worries though, we'll get it figured out here!

I don't have a whole lot to add other than to say that it's the velocity at the point the bullet strikes the quarry and the design of the bullet that are ultimately going to determine what happens.

I think way too many people are doing what Tas is suggesting with 300 Super Mag at 60 yards on Coues deer!  I believe part of this is due to the fact that people get it in their head that they must be able to shoot super far.  I am guilty of this.  I thought I was decent at estimating ranges for my hunting.  At the ranges I was shooting (under 300 yards) I was.  However, I got into the long range craze and found out with a newly purchased laser rangefinder that those FAR shots aren't so far as I thought - 1000 yards were really 700 and so on.  I've never fired on an animal further than 525 yards and that was a well practiced shot with a 300 win mag. 

Most of my deer hunting is done at less than 200 yards with a .257 Roberts with a 20 inch barrel in a Ruger 77 and 1.5 - 5 X Leupold Scope.  Now to some that would probably be archaic, but it works just fine for me and the 14 deer I've one-shot killed with it! 

Just my $0.02