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Topic ClosedCONCEALED CARRY HANDGUNS - BEST GROUPS

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: CONCEALED CARRY HANDGUNS - BEST GROUPS
    Posted: 31 July 2003 at 19:11

CONCEALED CARRY HANDGUNS - BEST GROUPS

This post can be as official as we wish to make it based on data submitted by shooters registered with this web site.  I'm willing to maintain and update these records each month based on the information provided to me. I'm sticking my neck out to post my own personal best records at each of the following ranges: 6, 21 and 75 feet plus at 100 and 150 yards. Records could also be established for additional ranges. Our primary goal, as I see it, is to show what can be done and thereby establish a yardstick for shooting groups with our concealed carry handguns. I'm thinking that a handgun, to be included, must be one that you actually conceal carry in a belt holster or shoulder holster. Barrel length: No longer than 6 1/2 inches. Sights: Open blade sights only. No peep sights. No scopes. No lasers. No shoulder mounted devices.  No bolt actions or single shots.

 

So, for better or worse, here are my personal best records:

6 feet standing off hand:
1/16 of an inch group
357 magnum Ruger SP 101 with 3 inch barrel
125 grain Armscor JSP
cjishere2

21 feet standing off hand:
2/16 of an inch group
357 magnum SP 101 with 3 inch barrel
125 grain Armscor JHP
cjishere2

75 feet sitting off a rest:
3/16 of an inch group
22 LR Ruger Mark II with 5 and 1/2 inch barrel
36 grain Remington JHP
cjishere2

100 yards sitting off a rest:
12/16 of an inch group
22 LR Ruger Mark II with 5 and 1/2 inch barrel
36 grain Remington JHP
cjishere2

150 yards standing off hand:
5 inch group
9mm S&W 659 with 4 inch barrel
115 grain Winchester USA FMJ
cjishere2

If you shoot a group that is better than one that is listed, please write to me and tell me:
1) Range. Records, so far, are only kept for groups shot at: 6, 21 and 75 feet plus 100 and 150 yards. Records at 6 and 21 feet and at 150 yards are kept for groups shot off hand, while standing, without any artificial support, either one or two handed. Records at 75 feet and 100 yards are kept for groups shot off a bench, or some other sort of rest, where the shooter is sitting or standing but still holding, controlling, the gun and pulling the trigger. No records are kept for groups fired from a machine rest or, thus far, from ranges other than those specified.
2) Your best group size as measured from center of bullet hole to center of bullet hole between the 2 shots farthest apart in the group being described. The minimum number of shots required to form a group is 3. Cherry picking: Shooting more than 3 shots and then only reporting your 3 best shots as a group is unfair, but, we will, of necessity, have to rely on each shooter's honesty to maintain our records integrity. You can submit a group with more than 3 shots in it but it will not be listed any differently than groups with 3 shots in them. All records are recorded and need be described to me in increments of 1/16 of an inch.
3) Caliber, make, model and barrel length of your handgun.
4) Bullet, cartridge, ammunition used. If you hand load, just say handloads. Do not give any loading details with respect to grains of powder loaded. This could create a liability issue.
5) Your registered name in this web site.

If you have any suggestions for improving this post, please write to me in this thread.

CJ

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.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2003 at 05:23

Don't think it would happen with any of the BSB, but I have seen some wonderful groups on the 'net that were shot with a keyboard. Cameras are not that expensive. I like to see targets. I suggest pictures.

"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2003 at 06:40

I'm all for cameras and photos, for those who have that capability, I'm not sure that all of us do, but, a cheater is a cheater and I'm not about to spend any of my retirement time trying to catch 'em.  If the honor system will not work here, well, that's just plain sad.  Nonetheless, if someone wants to volunteer to be our "quality control" moniter, that's fine with me and the job will go to whoever volunteer's first.  How about that for fair? 

I wrote the following response to a comment over in the Rifles section of this web site.  Much of what I wrote there also applies to handguns.  So, I've modified it accordingly and will now repeat it here:

I didn't mention it before, but I have all of the targets from the groups that I've listed in the initial records post.  They are all dated and many, if not most, have at least one witness to attest to them.  I don't think we have to go that far for what we are doing here but I'm bringing it up so you younger shooters, who are just starting out, can give some thought to not only saving your targets but writing relevant notes on them with respect to:  Weather, wind, range, handgun, load or cartridge, bullet, feet per second, if you have a chronograph available, sights, sight adjustments, if any, and how, if you made any, that sight adjustment effected your bullets point of impact, and, if possible, who was present and saw you shoot the target.  As time goes by, these targets will help you remember things that you might otherwise forget and also give you some interesting history to go with your handguns.

One of my mistakes was to throw away or give away targets when I sold or traded a handgun.  Today, as a semi serious amateur writer, I wish I still had that data.

For me, after half a century of doing it, it still feels good to know, by calling my shot, before I look, where my bullet has hit the target.  On the flip side, if my bullet is not where I thought it would be, trying to figure out what went wrong.  Also, for every one bullet that I have fired at a big game animal or varmint, I've probably fired hundreds, if not thousands, into paper.  As many have said before me:  The more I practice, the luckier I seem to get when it comes to shooting.

One more thought.  What we are doing here, with these records, does not address accuracy so much as it does consistency.  Once we are shooting consistent groups, we can adjust our sights so as to move our bullets point of impact to where we want it to be.  But, for our records to reflect accuracy, we would have to go one step further, one that I don't think is practical:  We would all have to be shooting at the same type of target.  And, based on my experience, that's just not realistic.  But it would reflect accuracy because we could, in addition to group size, report scores. 

For example:  A group, of any size that will fit in the 10 ring, would, for 3 shots, yield a total score of 30, out of a possible 30 point score. 

Recording scores as well as group size would reflect both accuracy and consistency.  But, for now, let's just stick with recording our group size.  That will be way easier, for all of us.  Heck, I'm cheap.  If someone gives me free targets, as a Sheriff, who is related to my best friend, is sometimes willing to do, I'm gonna use 'em.  I suspect most shooters are like me.  We will spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on a handgun and sighting system.  More top dollars on ammunition, either factory or hand loaded.  Yet, when it comes to targets, shoot at whatever we can get the cheapest.  I know guys who make more than $100,000 a year who shoot at paper plates and have yet to buy their first "pay for 'em" targets. 

But, I'm open to suggestions.  This post is for you folks more than it is for me.

CJ

 

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.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2003 at 07:29
Not  suggesting you or anyone else play "hall monitor", just suggesting that folks that want to play try to document groups with photos. As far as consistent targets, to steal a quote from John Candy, "We'd have better luck playing pick-up-sticks with our butt cheeks" than to get everyone to shoot at the same type of target. I like reactive targets, in the right environment. Clay pigeons, grapefruit, shotshells (extra points for popping the primer), beer cans (yes beer cans, not beverage cans or soft drink cans), or even rocks. Tortillas make a good target. Flour tortillas are nice and white, about 6 inches in diameter, and you can eat the ones you don't shoot!
"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2003 at 17:57

Again, I'm all for cameras and photos.  For those who have the capability.  But, in reality, since everyone doesn't, we cannot make it a requirement.

Point being, as you have suggested, cheaters are gonna cheat and liars are gonna lie, period.

As to the target issue, again, we are in agreement.

The type of shooting you describe is fun.  Personally, I've always called it plinking and I do a lot of it.  In fact, I think it is a real good way to build shooting skills that translate pretty well into real life.  Why?  More often than not we are shooting at undetermined ranges and we get to see, first hand, how destructive a bullet can be when it hits something we are familiar with.

CJ

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.416 Rigby
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2003 at 03:44
All of my carry guns are good shooters. I should say that they all can hit a head plate at 25 yards consistantly. That's all I require from a defense gun. I have held that a handgun isn't good for much but to fight my way back to my rifle that I would be dumb enough to leave out of arms length in the first place.

To keep it honest, I don't have a digital camera. If I did, I still wouldn't know how to load and post the pics. I have a scanner, but it's still chinese to me. I am doing good to post on the board, let alone get too high tech........LOL......... Kingpin
There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2003 at 07:09

Kingpin - Your comments have inspired me to write a whole new post:  Thanks! 

This is where I get some of my best ideas, via good discussion.

CJ

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.416 Rigby
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2003 at 07:21
Just my opinion, but if you are in a handgun situation over 15 yds, you shouldn't be in the fight. I belive most self defense situations are a lot closer. If it's further, you might have  a tad bit of trouble convincing a jury it was self defense.
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If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 August 2003 at 10:59
saddlesore, yes and no to the 15 yard theory. You're right that most gunfights take place at 12 feet or less with 1.2 rounds deciding the victor. That .2 round must be a bitch. If someone is blazing away at me from 25 yards, I will, make no mistake about it, give him a lesson in shooting. The undertaker will tell him what he missed while he's wiping his ass for sure. As far as the jury goes, I have not heard of many that don't accept the "self defense" defense, after all the facts are on the table.............Kingpin
There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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