in pursuit of .30/30 happyness

ok, [bleep] ... you got my curiosity piqued.

so, what can a 30-30 do for accuracy? i'm gonna find out. just got back from [bleep], where i picked up a couple of appropriate powders for the 30-30 - i still want to get a couple more before i get started in earnest, though. i also picked up some -gasp- factory loads to use as a baseline. and, some new brass to use as a control. i have a couple hundred 30-30 cases now that have not been prepped. i'll not prep those at all outside of trimming, and look to see if a lever gun can realize the accuracy benefits, and if so, how much?

last night i mounted a fixed-10x scope (w/ target turrets) on to my poor marlin 336. the gun is extremely displeased at this turn of events, but i promised it was only very temporary. i'm going to 'competition prep' the unfired brass, which will include sorting by weight. i'll use the factory loads to get me ballpark of where i need to be for accuracy and velocity, and then i'll get deep into the handloads. i'm planning on doing all development and testing at 200 yards, benched and bagged.

if the sight of me w/ a benched and bagged 30-30 sitting at the 200 yard line complete w/ a fixed-power target scope doesn't get me banned from the range, i don't know that it could happen. just so you know, the gun looks utterly stupid, and i feel bad for doing that to the gun!

i expect to test 4-5 powders out, and will probably go thru that many different bullets. i'll also experiment w/ crimp, since this is a tube-fed mag spring gun.

so, while i'm out pursuing unicorns, is there anything in particular you wanted me to test for? is there a particular powder or bullet you'd like an opinion on? is there anything tried and true that you've run that you'd reccomend i do?

if the chrony behaves, which is a lot to ask for w/ cold and snow on the ground, i should be done within 2 weeks. i'm hoping to start on this tomorrow, and finish up just after christmas. i'm having a very difficult time convincing myself that i need to prep 30-30 cases, but that's what i'm headed to do now... let me know!

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round 1 is done, which is to say i spent all morning and into the afternoon w/ the gun.

i discovered that even a 30-30 can benefit from a recoil pad. so when i was done shooting i went straight to the gunshop and picked one up. i'll be fitting it later tonight.

i also found there is a tremendous amount of drop between 100 and 200 yards, even more than i originally thought. this discrepancy is especially evident w/ 170 grain bullets. wind drift was hideous as well, and again, more than i had originally thought. 170 grain bullets did markedly better in the wind.

i have not put calipers to paper yet, but i found the 150 grain bullets to be better performers overall. accuracy was better, and they shot so much flatter it would be folly to try and run 170's. the 150's shot about 4" flatter, and drifted about 2" more. i'll sacrifice the drift to get that much more in flatness. if i had to rough guess group sizes, i'd say the 150's did about 4" on average at 200 yards, and the 170's did about 5". these are averages - you can take about 1.5" off of each for best groups. i'll break out the calipers later tonight and get better numbers.

and, i did get caught... somebody shooting a plastic-stocked, bipod-equipped bolt gun of some sort from sandbags happened to look over and spy my contraption. i saw him do a double take, and then i quickly went and hid behind my truck. i saw him smirk a couple times. i avoided him and conversation, though. eventually he gave up and left, which was great because i was able to relax, and take my time shooting.

anyway... so far, i've found 150 grain bullets to be the better performers. now, i can get ready to get into the real stuff: chasing accuracy. may have a chance to get some more results on Friday! i'm going to do old-school load development, which means it will take me forever, but when i get done, i will be able to confidently say 'there is no possibility of further accuracy'. of course, i have an appointment w/ a gunsmith coming up soon - we're gonna find a couple of accuracy tricks pertaining to the rifle itself... stay tuned! i'll put results up publically when i get it all done - thought you might enjoy the sneak peeks!

oh... you mentioned trying out seating depth variations. usually i do this as a matter of course w/ my bolt guns, but i can't do it w/ the marlin. i am restricted by crimping grooves, and since the ultimate goal is an accurate hunting rifle, i do not wish to sacrifice load capacity, inability to feed reliably, etc. as such, i will also not be testing spire-tipped bullets because of the tube mag. i will experiment w/ crimp, etc, but only flat-point bullets crimped into their groove will be tested.

last... i know you really like le, but i have done enough load and gun testing to know their stuff does not work as advertised, and at best will work almost as good as most other brands. and, i do have to draw the line somewhere. i don't want $200 in 30-30 loading hardware sitting around, so i have to cut corners somewhere, and by that i mean i am going straight to the stuff that has produced top-grade accuracy for me time and again - redding and rcbs. if i could find a lee factory crimp die, i'd buy it to test their claims, but thus far one has eluded me, and that is as far as i'm going to go w/ testing hardware (assuming i can even find one - checked [bleep], [bleep], [bleep, and [bleep] - next trip to [bleep] i'll check [bleep] and a couple other shops i know of there). benchresters don't use lee, and in my previous testing (you know i love testing claims and such, ie, the tubb pin, abrasive bullets, etc) lee failed to produce. so, sorry, i cannot waste the time and energy on that stuff.

more to come!

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ok, another 60 rounds sent downrange today. i fit a kick-eeze pad to the rifle, but by the end of the day i was still getting pretty fatigued, and recoil was a nuisance.

gotta say that i am very disappointed in today's results. it was pretty cold and windy out, but my chrony was consistently spitting out 150-200 f/s less than what the manuals were claiming. i used 3 different manuals to come up w/ my start loads, and worked up to 1 grain over max of the hottest manual, and still i came up pretty short. just to see if it was the chrony, i fired a couple winchester factory loads between the sticks, and velocity was right where i expected.

anyway, i am seeing a strong preference for h-322, and i am going to intensely test that powder out next. then i will re-visit varget, 748, 2230, and 4895 and see where everything shakes out. once i determine the best load, i am going to apply a couple tricks, and see what realistic improvement can a hunting 30-30 make. next session is going to be w/ neck-sized cases. i checked, and all the fired and neck-sized cases still feed smoothly. maybe a couple firings will start to blow them out too much - we'll see. after that, i'll drill out the flash holes to .072 - .075 (old accuracy trick i've had success w/ in the past), and finally i'll neck the brass up to 338 or 323 and size it back to fit. should be interesting.

anyway, there's the update for where i'm at now. basically, i am still pressure testing because of today's disappointing results, but moving forward.

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thank you, and i hope you have a fantastic christmas as well. by the looks of your reloading postings, its kinda looking like you're getting your bench set up and all that good stuff.

rl-15 is one of my favorite powders for 308. unfortunately i am out of it right now, but... varget is virtually grain-for-grain identical to rl-15, and i do have varget on hand. initial testing w/ varget didn't reveal much, but i'll get back to it. its gonna take me a few more weeks to conclude this, and by then i'm sure i'll have rl-15 back on the bench.

i have settled on a bullet, though, and that is the 150 sierra pro-hunter. i like sierra bullets quite a bit, but must admit hornady is my 'go-to' bullet for hunting accuracy. not so, this time.

anyway, if the weather will turn favorable, i'm gonna hit the range christmas day some time. but, if it stays crappy out, i'm gonna let it go for a bit. i've done all the wind-drift testing i needed to do, and have found what i wanted to know. and i'm tired of fighting the windchill, tired of jerking the trigger w/ a numb finger, tired of fighting tears back from my eye long enough to get a good shot off, tired of tearing up my right hand on the lever because it is numb and i can't feel how hard i'm mashing the lever, and really, really tired of not being able to see a thing through my spotting scope because the flippin' wind is shaking it so much i can't even spot 30 cal bullet holes at 200 yards.

anyway... not a soul on the range today - more likely than not an indictment on my intelligence for being out there in current weather conditions - so i was able to shoot the rifle w/ that abomination of a scope sitting on it w/o being scared somebody would see me.

on a positive note... i am getting more and more impressed w/ that scope every outing. it just might be the best deal out there for $200 scopes. but, being a fixed-10, it has limited applications for many people. gotta say, though, not many scopes in the $300 and under price range are absolutely predictable and repeatable w/ the turrets like this one is. and... it outperforms my 3-9x40 zeiss for repeatability, tracking, and especially durability (trying very hard not to get started on my zeiss rant, here)!

off to bed w/ me - gotta work in the morning, and then we're going to [bleep] for christmas eve (home for christmas day), so i'll catch up w/ you later.

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OK, [bleep]... another week and lots more shooting done, thought I'd hit ya w/ an update...

First, the gun... I'm starting to like the Marlin 336 less and less. I hate cleaning the damned microgroove barrel - it is exceedingly difficult to remove all the copper. I am annoyed w/ the trigger; not so much because of its weight, but because of the inconsistent pull. One shot will break at about 3 pounds, the next breaks at 7, and the next at 5, etc etc. The inconsistency is driving me up a wall. I'm also a bit irritated w/ the 2-piece firing pin. I am getting about a 15% failure to fire rate (but if I re-cock and fire, it goes off), and I do not know for sure the firing pin is the culprit, but I am pretty sure it is not helping anything. Last bitch is the lever loop. It is just too damned small for shooting w/ gloves on. Some of these gripes will be fixed easily enough w/ a call to [bleep], but I am not happy about having to do extensive surgery (and expense) on a rifle to make it work properly.

The load testing... I have found there is no measurable improvement in group sizes from drilling out the flash holes. I have also found no measurable improvement from necking the brass up then back down to barely fit the chamber. I have found no measurable improvement by using weight-matched cases. I have found a measurable improvement from neck-sizing only. The downside to this is the lever wants to pop open on a chambered cartridge. Not sure that it is that big of a deal, but when you're hunting, and you finally get the shot you've been working on all day, it is one more thing to remember during your shot sequence. Again, it may matter more to some than others but it is there.

Success story... Today I fired three 3-shot groups at 200 yards (benched and bagged) that measured under 1.5", and of those 1 was under 1"! Unfortunately, I seriously doubt the gun and load will do that consistently, but I'm going to find out.

There's more to come here... I think I'm just across the halfway point on this. I'll be hunting New Year's day and next weekend, so the testing is going on the backburner for the next week, but I should have 'er wrapped up before mid-January.

Powders tested: H-322, Varget, H-4895, RL-15, H-380, Ramshot Big Game, IMR 4350, AA2230, and Winchester 748. Of these powders, I have been able to dismiss AA2230 (useless), and Big Game (too slow). It is kind of looking like IMR 4350 is too slow as well, but I want to finish wringing it out before I write it off for the 30-30. So far, H-322 is showing the most promise.

I'm looking forward to wrapping this all up!

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Another session at the range done, we're getting close!

Temps were in the teens, and the range was pretty busy. I've gotten used to the rifle looking silly, so I didn't bother trying to hide it today. I was experimenting w/ crimp and found the crimp has a lot more impact on group sizes than a lot of other things I've tested for. Interesting because it is definitely a mark against the 30-30 - another variable that has to be tested and proofed out during development, and then has to be repeatable which is extremely difficult to do.

I'm getting a ton of mis-fires, and that is extremely frustrating. I'm pretty sure it is because of the goofy firing pin assembly. Up until I started this project, of the several thousand (tens of thousands?) cartridges I've loaded, I've only ever had 1 mis-fire which was in one of the first loads I ever screwed together. I'll try a primer switch to remove that as a possibility, and go from there.

Anyway... that's where its at.

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yes, the mis-fires are really frustrating. i do not think marlin is to blame, necessarily, though i still do not like the 2-piece firing pin. the marlin is a 336c - 2 barrel bands, fancy stock, etc - probably much the same as yours and possibly from the same vintage (mine was bought new, by me, in the mid-90's).

in thinking about the gun, i think there is a good chance there's a lot of garbage built up in the bolt body. i'm going to start by stripping that down (soon as i figure out how) and performing a deep cleaning. if that fails to fix the problem, i'll switch primers, but really, the primers are cci and work fine in everything else i am currently loading out of this batch (308, and 8x57).

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further testing and attempted isolation of my misfire problem has revealed the problem to be the rifle. the multi-piece firing pin sucks up a lot of energy by itself. add in a touch of dirt to the primary pin, and that slows things down more. add in a weird firing pin arrangement just at the bolt head, and energy transfer isn't real efficient. finally, add in a pin that appears to just rub the side of the hole a touch, and you have misfires.

of course, the gun runs fine most of the time, and after the thorough hosing off i gave the bolt assembly, i expect the gun will function well again.

i am discovering a few things about the marlin i don't like... in addition to the goofy firing pin arrangement, i am not a fan of the 2-piece ejector. it has not failed yet, but when i inspect it, i can't help but notice it appears fragile. why didn't marlin make it one-piece - or at least a very stout 2-piece design? dunno...

anyway, just thought i'd update ya!

i just started work again on the 300 savage (savage 99) - i like the feel of the marlin bolt locking into place better than the savage (it feels kinda squishy, might be more critical of dirt build-up), but overall i think the savage has a better feel. i think the marlin may be more durable, though.

should be wrapped up w/ the 30-30 within the next 2 weeks. made some interesting discoveries along the way... not sure i'd care to repeat the process again, though!

as always, work gets in the way of fun. went to a conference today on carbon capture and -yawn- sequestration... spent 45 minutes of my life i'll never get back riveted to a seat talking w/ a cpa... have an appointment next week w/ the sheriff to discuss issues in ranching (this one might actually be fun and interesting)...

hope your year is off to a good start! mine isn't...

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wrapped up my testing today, except for the 200 yard chrony readings. i want to see what the real velocity is at 200 yards, not what a ballistic [program] guesses. it can get very complicated, but especially for low velocity cartridges, ballistic tables and programs are rarely close. i do not know if i will get to the chrony readings anytime soon. it might have to wait until spring - just depends what project i have coming up next...

anyway, i found that by getting extreme in case prep, rifle rest, and if i was absolutely anal in crimping and trimming procedures, a marlin 336 microgroove in 30-30 is capable of going sub-1" at 200 yards for 3 shots. which begs the question... is it worth the effort? i guess the answer depends on your faith and abilities in the chambering.

for your amusement... i found varget to give me the absolute best velocities, beating out many of the other powders by as much as 200 f/s. i was disappointed in h-4895, but concede that could be an individual gun's preference.

i wound up liking win 748 the best. it was the most consistent accuracy-wise. single best groups belong to varget, which also got about 75 f/s more than 748. most consistent groups went to 748, regardless of the condition of the brass. lowest standard deviation readings between varget and 748 is a toss up. both would float between 11 - 19, depending on the day. note that i could not consistently get single-digit sd's or es's. i usually don't have a problem getting there w/ about any bolt gun and bolt gun chambering.

if i got absolutely carried away w/ case prep and shot multiple back to back groups of anal-prep vs. no-prep cases, the difference was worth a little more than 1" at 200 yards. no other cartridge i've worked w/ has given that much improvement from mere case prep.

so... there it is. thoughts?

btw... i'm yanking the scope this evening and putting the irons back on.

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10 shots at the muzzle averaged 2249 f/s w/ a s.d. of 11. 10 more shots at the target (200 yards) average 1679 f/s w/ a s.d. of 34. this was w/ 150 grain sierras.

i haven't run it thru a ballistic calculator yet to see what it means, but there's some raw data.

on a positive note, i did not shoot the chrony, and kept all shots in the black w/ open sights. i've also discovered my length of pull is a touch too long.

anyway, that's about the end of the 30-30 testing. have not had any misfires since the thorough hosing off of the firing pin/bolt assembly.

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at 200 yards, that works out to 950-ish pounds of energy. so, this is where you discover differences in individual hunters. for example, how much energy is required to kill a deer, holding shot placement equal?

my own thoughts are 1000 pounds of energy assuming appropriate shot placement and assuming appropriate bullet performance. but, my own bias calls for an exit wound, and as an abundance of caution i want to have more than enough and know i'm good vice being right at the threshold and hoping its enough.

so, given all that, i would call the 30-30 a legitimate up-to-200-yards-deer-whacker energy wise. in practice, its gonna be an individual thing, especially w/ open sights. the mid-point of the trajectory is about 4" high, and the thing is subject to some pretty wicked wind drift. i know this because i've experienced it!

we could get into a pretty lengthy discussion about bullet bc's here, but understand the bc of a bullet is subject to change significantly for any reason, or even for no reason. the measured bc of the 150 fp (measured by taking chrony readings at the muzzle and at the target) is .25x... anyway, gotta get ready for work. have a good day!

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fin