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TasunkaWitko View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 March 2012 at 16:45
TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2012 at 14:00
Good chart. One thing that's left out is the .357 Silver
Tip, which is a REAL meat cutter............Kingpin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2012 at 17:12
Petty neat comparisons....10mm looks pretty wicked!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2012 at 17:21
Yes the comparisons are nice, but the requirements are, 15
of penetration, according to the FBI. It looks like the 10
mm might have made it, but just.....................Kingpin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mule_tail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2012 at 19:24
they forgot the smith and wesson 500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dennis Keith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2012 at 16:36
I had a Doctor whose Husband had a .500 Smith. (She was also a Glock Armorer) dang near broke her "Girly Wrists" on that beast. My .45ACP is all I think I'll need. Humans still are put together the same way they were when that Wise Old Mormon built it in 1911.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2012 at 16:51

Fella's;

Weeeell, there are other relevant considerations.  All of which should be taken into account when choosing the self-defense sidearm for your purposes.

Things such as:  The Colt Delta Elite is a full size 1911 platform, and therefore can be harder to conceal for a lot of folks.  Due to the recoil of the 10mm, getting the gun back on target for an accurate second shot can take more time.  A particular problem if there's more than one reason to keep on shooting.  I do believe that was a major consideration in the FBI's going to the .40 S&W.  Then it seems that getting factory rolled ammo can be a bit of a problem these days.  And when you can find it, can you afford enough of it in order to practice enough to master the system?  Back to talking point #2.  If you roll your own and use it in a self defense encounter, will a fire-breathing liberal DA make the point that you brewed up your own special killer-diller ammo?  I think that one has raised it's pimply little head in a real-world court.

And, speaking of the real world, I do believe that there are several calibers, the 10 not included, that are recognized one-shot-stoppers.  Which is not to say the 10 can't do it, but why bother when there are apparantly equally lethal options open to you without the drawbacks?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2012 at 02:59

Weel, why didn't they list a 30-30  then we could see something.  The cartridge isn't the only consideration, nor is blood channel.

You have to look at the platform of the weapon, and the penetration.  Penetration is chief.  And it looks like the 9mm penetrated the same as all the large frame guns.

If platform doesn't matter, I'll tak my 375 win Contender over all them thar cartridges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2012 at 04:57

Fella's;

As Bear points out, the platform does make a difference.  Which is what I was trying to say with point #1, ie that the Delta Elite is a big gun.  Not as big as some though, the .500 S&W or .375 Contender being cases in point. 

But, if we're going to stick to self-defense platforms in the real world. The kind that really should be kept under wraps as it were, we're sticking to pistols and their available cartridges.  And in that case, after looking at the above chart, there's several good reasons to pass up the 10mm & buy a better system.

It's not all about penetration either, although that is an important point.  But, most authorities consider effective energy transfer to be a more important factor.  In other words if a 10mm 180 gr bullet leaves the muzzle at 1250 fps, it's carrying about 624 ft lbs of energy.  Now if it impacts the target medium, (Claude Crackhead), at 15 feet and then goes another 42.561 yards before coming to a stop on Fleebleburg Fine Furniture's west brick wall, leaving a 1.368" deep hole, it didn't expend all it's energy in Claude.  I, and the FBI, would rather use the .40 S&W 180 gr bullet leaving the muzzle at 980 fps carrying about 384 ft lbs of energy, and have the bullet found a quarter of an inch deep in Claude's spine, expanded to .613".  Of course if Claude is a fat boy the bullet might not get that far.  But, it's still gonna hurt and a second bullet can be put on target (Claude) quicker than recovering from the recoil of a launcher (equal & opposite remember) that left you with 240 ft lbs more energy to absorb & deal with when trying to quickly get back on target, (Yeah it's still Claude).

Just sayin'.

900F



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2012 at 15:32
I think that more energy expended in the perp is a good thing and any that goes out in an exit hole is wasted & that passed thru bullet is gunna land someplace & that may cause more issues. 

Platform size, as already noted, has much importance in concealed carry....the main idea is to be concealed..& comfortable....40S&W can be found in some pretty reasonable platforms & is proven under fire to be more than capable...good bullets of course enter into that equation.

Now we know the 9mm can be had in a smaller platform still & some consider it, with the right bullet, to be adequate also.  All that said I really still like the 1911/.45ACP platform and under some circumstances it is still viable albeit somewhat on the heavy side.


Edited by Irish Bird Dog
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deaddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2012 at 00:27
Glock 29 = compact 10mm.

You may have noticed the .357 isn't on the list? It penetrates more
than the 10 and comes in numerous compact revolvers. Concealable
over penetration is available to anyone that wants it.

DD

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasunkaWitko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2012 at 01:05
i just liked the gigantic, nuclear-mushroom-cloud-looking feature toward the end...
TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2012 at 02:36

If you live in winter cold country, and you consider most encounters outside.  You really need to factor in heavy clothing.  A plastic/leather coat and plug most hollow points on entry, so all that expansion is for not.

That is why my CCW is loaded with FMJ most of the year.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2012 at 12:24

Bear;

I seem to recall that Hornady has stated that their latest self-defense ammo is guaranteed to expand no matter the conditions.  Including clothing.  I also recall that Winchester has released a new self-defense ammo that also is supposed to be vastly improved.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2012 at 15:36

Actually, cavitation is a study. Also not included in the chart is the mix of ballistic gealitan. Now to break it all down, and I know no one mentioned it, is knockdown. There is no such thing. Every single caliber is capable of being a stopper, as long as the bullet hts the right spot. Speaking with a little experience, there are only two kinds of shots that count:

1. Instant incapacitation

2. Instant kill

Some time ago, the FBI conducted a study into what qualifies as a good stopper. The magic number was 15". It was considered that a round that can penetrate that far, would make a good stopper, because, the temporary cavitation would disrupt enough vital organs, even if missed, to stop a man in his tracks. There are two types of cavities, temporary, and permanent. The temporary cavity is the one that, through hydro-static shock, stretches in an impressive balloon shape in the target. The permanent one is the true channel made by the bullet. The "over penetrating" round is a lot like a maroon once posted about big guns "over exploding deer." He was a guide and, might I add, a ballistics expert. Well in his mind he was. Now for an autopsy photo that I once saw, provided to me by Dr. Martin Fackler, of the wound channel, along with a tape measure to show how far it went in the body, from an MP-5 SD firing 147 grain hollow point subsonic ammunition. It was a one shot kill that penetrated  exactly 15", passing through the arm,  into the armpit, and coming to rest in the rib opposite the entry wound. Now on the question of hollow points, In handgun calibers they will NOT work reliably unless they are driven 1800 FPS minimally. It was found, as Bear said, that if shot through heavy clothing, the cloth plugs up the hollow point generally, and turns the hollow point bullet into, for want of a better comparison, a FMJ bullet. I have found, when I was doing handgun tests, with a variety of ammo, that no hollow point handgun round acts reliably enough to expand as advertised or even expected to totally depend on. For myself, in my .357 Mag, I use Silfertip ammo because of the findings of the FBI and what I found during our tests, which backed up the report. In all other handguns, .45 ACP, 9 MM, an .38Spl (my choices depending on where I am going) I use FMJ. Anyway, this is what I found in our tests..........................Kingpin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deaddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2012 at 23:31
Shot some 9mm 115gr Nosler HP's into a snow bank this last winter.
Recovered two of them yesterday since all the snow melted. They
looked like I could reload them they were so pristine. 1280fps.

DD
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