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When is it good enough?

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MapleHill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: When is it good enough?
    Posted: 21 February 2020 at 19:53
Hey guys, I was talking to D the other night on the HB chat, discussing when you find a load that works in a particular rifle. How good is good? I guess, for me, it would depend on the rifle and the intended use. I am strictly a hunter, so I shoot (pun intended) for a 1" group at 100yds, 1MOA, with most of my "deer size" calibers. To me a deer rifle is from 243-450 Marlin, that I have. I don't hunt deer with my magnums anymore, I have several 7mm, 300, 8mm, 338, etc. I have several out of the box deer rifles that I can consistently shoot sub-MOA. In the last 6-8yrs I have got into 22 centerfires. I currently have a 221 FB, 222, 223 and 220 Swift bolt guns. I have really been working with them in the chance I can make it out and chase after some p-dogs with D. I have got the first 3 to shoot 3 to 5 shot groups in .5-.8" at 100yds, I haven't worked with the swift much yet, but the cheap Rem factories I sighted it in with held 1" or just over so I think it will work. All of the 22s are sporter barreled standard stocked rifles, nothing match or tactical, walking varminters I guess you'd call them. I see on all kinds of forums with teeny tiny groups from various 22 CFs, but they are usually from ticked out target style rifles. SO what do I expect from my straight up rifles? Honestly, I am pretty happy with a 3/4" group from them. Is that p-dog worthy? If I can figure it out, I'll add some pictures. 

sorry so long winded, trying to get some conversation going during the winter dull-drums!! 
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BEAR View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2020 at 12:14
I think you got it right, depends upon use.
I stop load developement when I get sub 1".  getting smaller usually means for me, improving my shooting skill.

I use to use 243 and 22-250 for PDs.  But DD said the fun was seeing the 'kill', so I got a 222 rem Tika.  Out of the box with reloads 1/2"  all factory.  it is now my go to PD gun, no regrets.

Anything bigger than 222/223 moves you scope off target for the 'kill'.

For big game out to 200 yards 2" groups are all that are needed.

just my 2 cents
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MapleHill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2020 at 12:33
Bear, I have got rid of rifles that I can't get better than 1.5-1.75" groups. Conversely, I have got rid of rifles that shot 1/2" groups...regrettably. One that really sets in my craw was a Ruger 77 "Flatbolt" in 308...traded it off and have regret it ever since. Note to self, NEVER get rid of one that shoots tiny groups! It is not easy. I have 3 or 4 in the safe right now that I know I can shoot well under an inch every time they go out (with a good rest and me doing my part). The hard part is doing it consistently, weather plays a big part in that, and the powder used seems to be the determining factor in temperature change. If I make it out with D my wife and boys will be with me. I will let them pick what they want to shoot as far as the 22CFs go. The 221, 222 and 223 are pretty docile, the 221 is a 24" Rem 700LS, the 223 is a Weatherby Vanguard so they have some substance to them, the 222 is a "Composite" Rem 700, I got the parts and put it together. 20" barrel in an ADL stock. They should be able to see the results of a hit! The 220 is a different beast. Anyone that has a hot-rod 22 CF knows what I'm talking about. It was the first one I got and was quite taken back with it! I shouldn't have been, but it surprised me with the recoil and blast, Ruger 77 standard "tanger". 
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RaySendero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RaySendero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2020 at 16:04
Originally posted by MapleHill MapleHill wrote:

.....
sorry so long winded, trying to get some conversation going during the winter dull-drums!! 
1st - Even though I shortened your post to reply, I do not consider this "long winded"
2nd - perfect timing, as this is that time of year I'm cleaning up all rifles I used for hunting season and checking on rest one at a time to make sure they all LOOKED at every year,
 
I do believe that chasing accuracy is a continuous improvement process that one shouldn't get complacent with it. I'm satisfied with the rifles and accuracy of everyone I have left.  So here's how I manage:  Each year I'll pick one rifle for an accuracy improvement project.  It will be a reloading experiment cause the rifles themselves AREN'T BROKE.
 
A lot of times just a change of bullet will make big difference.  My experience is that this change can be for the worst.  Not to be discouraged, It just means you already had the better bullet  But, have also found a bullet the rifle likes better.
Ray
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MapleHill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2020 at 17:43
Funny you should mention that Ray. I dug my old 7mmMag out and tried a new load in it today. It shot absolutely lights out! I never played with it much. When I got it I just started loading on my own and found a decent load with 160 Accubonds and left it with that. My FIL took a couple Canadian moose with it and I took a couple deer here at home, parked it in the safe and kind of forgot about it. My Montana trips have piqued my interest in a new form of shooting, well beyond what I ever will do here in the big woods of NY. 
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jsgbearpaws1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2020 at 01:55
Sub MOCritter is all that is needed for the range comfortable with. Anytime you get a gun and loading to do better then that, then you need to stretch out your comfort zone til you can outpace your combo...then start over, etc. OR! Get to where you are comfortable and a combo that affords better then needed and accept your limitations without compromise. I have several CF rifles that can easily outshoot me with multiple loads. I know my eyes and my nerves so my comfort zone is a simple 200 yards on big game. Doesn't matter to me anymore to risk a poor shot on most game.....paper and varmints, different story.
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2020 at 08:35
I'm never really done working on loads.
When we are happy with a load and commit to using it we will load 500 or so and back off for a bit.
BUT if we stumble on to some new info or find a new wonder load for a similar round/rifle we will re visit it or make up some test rounds. Then one day when we go to the range to work bring it along and put it into the rotation. Seldom do we find something better but sometimes we do. If it's marginally better we will use up the stoke on hand then transition in to the new load. If it's a OMG this it it load we will use the old stuff up at a P dog town and shift to the new stuff and the process starts over.
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2020 at 09:35
Sort of depends if a guy is primarily a shooter or primarily a hunter.

When I started to reload in 1962, it was principly for savings.  Soon discovered I could also improve accuracy.  but that was a long time ago.

Today's factory ammo is just GREAT.  And a hunter would not go wrong always just using green/yellow Remington ammo.  It is reliably between 1.5 to 3/4" at 100 yards.  all a deer/bear/hog hunter needs.

If a guy is a driven shooter and enjoys reloading ( I do) then we never stop experimenting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2020 at 10:12
Good post guys....nothing to add all well said.
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Wing master View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2020 at 17:02
I also enjoy reloading and the quest for the ultimate in accuracy. 

I like Ray's idea of taking one gun a year and working with it. 

I have also found that checking things like the barrel crown is worthwhile from time to time. 

I believe that almost any new gun is capable of minute of angle groups. It might take a while to find a powder and bullet it likes but I think it is out there. 

After finding a good powder/bullet combination I have always been able to improve group size by changing seating depth. 

Wing master
I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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jsgbearpaws1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2020 at 21:38
I have heard that there is a definition of "Too much". Had something to do with firing towards Nebraska to hit a PD in the Dakotas. Has something to do with windage I believe though....could be wrong. Not sure how you dope that out or the sight configuration but I'm sure much practice is had to get to that level.
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 08:30
I helps to sight in at the distance you expect to shoot.  then mak a chart.

Local range here is only 300 yards.  I sight in for 3" low at 300 yards for antelope...then adjust for 200 and 400 yds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 16:09
From some of the stories I've heard, curvature of the earth is a consideration to hit critters in a Wyoming breeze as the shot has to be fired around the globe easterly to connect with said PD 400 yards west of position. I believe this is where those GPS things come into play as well as jet stream, flight paths and migratory birds
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 17:34
It's not so much the curvature, as the rotation.
By time the bullet gets to your target the earth as rotated and the target has moved out of the flight plan.
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Wing master View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 18:59
Jsg,

How much holdover is needed for a 400 yard shot in Wyoming when the wind is not blowing?

Wing master
I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 19:01
From what I'm told such a shot has never occurred.

...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Wing master View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 19:12
D,

I have read about the earth rotating and moving the target. I really thought it was just something that someone dreamed up.

Then one night their was a perfectly clear sky and a cool looking full moon. I got out my spotting scope with a Phoneskope and set it up to take a picture of the moon. I set something like a 3 second timer on my phone camera and lined it up on the moon. by the time the 3 seconds was up the moon was 3/4 out of the picture.

I ended up having to lead the moon by almost the full diameter of the moon to get it centered in the picture.

That made me think their really was something to this Coriolis effect thing.

Wing master
I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 19:14
You're right. And their has never been a time that the wind wasn't blowing in Wyoming.

Wing master
I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 21:21
Big slow booluts! Is a 16" deck gun ok for PD's? I'm terrible at doping strong winds.
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2020 at 08:37
Wing, interesting Moon shot.

Remember, you are not seeing the earth movement, as the moon also rotates around the earth.
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