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water bug

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    Posted: Yesterday at 15:53
great.  keep us involved in the project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 14:22
I did a no load, no prop today.
All looked good. The clutch started to move at around 1800rpm.
I did not have my laser tack on the hub but it looked slower then the drive.
It starts out at 3x1.
As I increased the motor RPM the clutches both moved, as expected, the clutches
Topped out at 3000 RPM, right where I was hoping.
I should be like .70x1 there ,I would guess around the top end for the prop, 3100RPM.
I didn't run it long but It was quiet and smooth and looked to be running true.Clap
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2017 at 07:46
three blade.  that will keep the ground clearance decent.

support looks rugged.  I'd double bolt and pin/all nuts...vibration!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2017 at 18:12
Originally posted by RobertMT RobertMT wrote:

If that won't push the boat, hook a generator up and power your block.
 
I hope the tired 60 horses in the bug motor can turn it .
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2017 at 18:09
Originally posted by Irish Bird Dog Irish Bird Dog wrote:

d I see an "adjustment" tool of some kind lying in the bottom picture near the bottom....just what do you adjust with it?????????Confused
 
Anything I NEED to!!!!!
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2017 at 16:33
If that won't push the boat, hook a generator up and power your block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2017 at 16:31
d I see an "adjustment" tool of some kind lying in the bottom picture near the bottom....just what do you adjust with it?????????Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2017 at 15:27
In between deer hunts...
 
 
 
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2017 at 08:51
The prop required torque to reach 3100 rpm would, if my slide rule is still working, be    93.5 foot pounds of torque.  
   
Sounds to me you are very close, on the torque ratings.  your CV, Continuous Variable transmission, is centrifugally controlled, sort of an automatic.  And I suspect the bell housing curve is profiled for the snowmachine thread load and a 2 stroke.  So you might not get to top speed the fastest, BUT it should take you there.

Still looking like a sound project D.

We are anxious for the test results on run up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 18:21
The chain is after the clutches. To the prop. I can change it easily if needed
Right now it is 1 to 1.
The clutch starts at 3 to 1 and finishes at .70 to 1, a little over drive...
The prop is made to run at 3100 rpm and with max pitch takes 55 hp to turn it at that speed according to the prop people.
THATS the reason for the torque converter. 
Normally a 1600cc can't get it turning that fast because there max hp is at 3000 rpm, that is with out a reduction , but then you need to run your motor at 4000rpm + to get to the max on the prop..
 It's like chasing your tail.
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 14:50
If this helps your thinking.

60 hp @ 3000 rpm means max torque output of VW engine is   105 Ft lbs.

The Snowmachine   40 hp engine, if it was made to run at say 5000 rpm (just a guess for a 2 stroke)  would have a shaft max output torque of  42 ft pounds.

These are MAX calculations.   Only a test will tell.

Where is the extra chain drive transmission you installed?  between the vw engine and the SM clutch?  between the SM clutch and the prop?

Remember the VW engine will only put out enough torque to match the prop load. 

 Propeller loads increase with the square of the speed.  So if you double the speed of the prop...you need 4 times the torque.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 14:36
The primary sheave is centrifugally operated and engages the trans-mission belt when the engine speed reaches approximately 2700 rpm.When the engine is rotating at idle speed or below 2700 rpm, the trans-mission belt rides on a ball bearing between the halves of the primarysheave assembly (see Fig

As the engine speed increases, centrifugal effect forces a garterspring in the end cap outward against the contour of the end cap and axially against the movable sheave half. The profile of the end cap causes the engagement.  As the sheaves are broughttogether the transmission belt is forced outward to ride on a larger diameter of the primary sheave assembly, increasing belt speed (seeFigure 3-8). Since the belt length remains constant, the secondarysheave halves spread apart, allowing the belt to ride on a smaller diameter (low gear).  As the belt climbs between the cone pulley assembly the gear ratio decreases (high gear).


If the torque rating is increase above the rated torque,  the movable sheave will rotate at a speed slower than the outer primary sheave (input speed).  this will causes the garterspring to move at this slip rate, and wear against the wear  disk and/or the  end cap.

The assembly also includes a wear disk.  Which I assume is to compensate for undesred wear, but is very limited.  The wear would be preferred to be on the softer wear plate than the garterspring or the end cap.

If you know the HP of the VW and its top rpm, along with the HP of the snowmachine and it's top speed the max torque of each is easily calculated.
D,  you always have the most interesting  and thought provoking issues.  BEAR 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 12:12
Originally posted by Irish Bird Dog Irish Bird Dog wrote:

wondering if there is a direct relationship to rpm's to clutch vs hp creating those rpm's????.....for example could you control the power output to the clutch via rpm's?...so as to not over max the clutch?
The VW gets its max HP at around 3000 rpm I could just limit the speed of the motor, BUT I NEED all the HP to spin the prop I have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:59
Thanks.
There is nothing to slip in the clutch.
 it consists of a spring rapped around a shaft.
The spring pushes the sides of the pulley outward making the
belt ride higher on the sides  changing the gearing to the secondary.
Which opens wider from the "Shorter" belt and spring presser and that changes the rpm to the prop. There all on splined shafts they can't slip, the belt can but not the clutches. When its in "Neutral" it is just the belt two "LONG" to engage the sides of the pulleys .
So there Not actually a centrifugal force friction clutch.
There a variable "Step" belt drive like on a drill press only automatic, kinda. 
 
Look at the bottom part of the exploded view and see the clutch assembly
 


Edited by d4570 - 13 October 2017 at 14:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:55
Yo d4570...no mechanical ability or knowledge here but..wondering if there is a direct relationship to rpm's to clutch vs hp creating those rpm's????.....for example could you control the power output to the clutch via rpm's?...so as to not over max the clutch?

Like...Find out what were the max rpm's on the old Johnson motors of 40hp that were required to allow the clutch to "open" to put full output to the belt (allow it to drop down to  bottom of "v" for full power) and what they said was the max rpm's to the clutch to achieve that result.Question
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:46
It is a centrifugal clutch,  Many of those don't disengage when speed is reduced...IF there is a heavy weight (mass inertia) load on them...they stay locked up.  You prop may make it lock in 'engaged' mode!  
Keep you finger on the 'kill switch' as you try to go to neutral.   A short stop is much better than an unwanted travel up into a dock/parking lot.


Clutches are not usually rated/limited on a horsepower basis.  they are rated/limited on a torque basis.

If the snowmachine ran at a higher RPM for that 40 hp rating; then if the VW engine is running at a lower RPM than snowmachine engine....you will be limited to torques much lower than the torque available from that VW engine, even at  an aged 40 hp.

Also decelerating with the high inertia prop might get torques higher than the rated clutch torque, thereby skidding the clutch friction material.  (wearing it out quick).

Just thoughts from an old engineer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:18
Houston there Could be a problem...
I just read that the type of clutch (Salisbury Clutch) off the old Johnson's where only rated to 40 hp.
The 1600cc vw is rated at 60 hp.
I'm thinking with the high altitude and loads of miles on the motor I'll probably be closer to 50 hp.
Hope it will work...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2017 at 13:26
Won't get the bug in this year but we ARE going Swan hunting ASSP...

Edited by d4570 - 12 October 2017 at 13:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2017 at 13:22
going good D.  Congratulations so far.

Duckies are flying!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2017 at 12:54
Major test . A+
1971 VW bug 1600cc undetermined  mileage motor.
This set in a shed for maybe 30 years. I Got a new carb at amazon,
New coil, plugs wires points and condenser. I set the valves and point with a feeler gauge ,remember them ? I had it running on the ground for like 5 minutes for the first test of the clutch adaptor that I had made. It failed in moments. I redesigned and had it fabbed up again, This time with a carrier bearing and a shaft that went in to the piolet bearing in the crank. Have not ran since. I built the hull made the motor mounts and finally mounted it on the boat.
Made a mount for the carrier bearing re did the starter to fit.
About a year later. Today I needed to start it up and see if my primary clutch off the 1969 Johnson snowmobile would even work.
Dang! I put the fuel line in to a gas can and hit the starter. A dozen turns and she came to life. I have not put a timing light on it yet but it ran very smooth from, 800 rpm (Idle) after the electric choke came all the way off , to 5000 rpm ( as fast as I wanted to turn it unloaded). As stated in the information I could find on the clutch It engaged at 1700rpm and at 3100 rpm was fully moved in for the reduction change. Everything sounded smooth and solid. I ran it for a half hour or so at 2500 rpm. I still have to do some work on my temp and oil psi apparently, but the oil on the dip stick was still cool to the touch.  NICE!
Next to mount the secondary clutch, and see if that part works as expected !!!
 
 
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