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BEAR View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 July 2020 at 09:05
If someone is interested in a sub 22 center fire rifle...don't know why!  But seems the 17 cal and the 20 cal are the options.  And there seems to be dozens of specific cartridges for each diameter .

Which would be better 17 or 20 cal?

any thoughts.
The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2020 at 09:44
I shoot a .204R. Recoil nil & is accurate & lets u see hit in scope most times. Cuz lite recoil.
Never used a ,17 cal 'cept a Daisy BB gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2020 at 06:37
seems good cartridge.  Based upon the 222 mag, does it make a louder report than the 223?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2020 at 07:19
Lizard and IBD make very good examples of the 204.
 Which is a very good round equal in performance ,maybe a little better, to the 22/250 up to about 45 gr bullets.
Then you gota look at my son and his 17k hornet.
OUTSTANDING. 
It's going to be hard to put your 222 down.


Edited by d4570 - 28 July 2020 at 07:20
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2020 at 08:42
My varminting has been with 22 LT, 22 RFMag, 17 HMR, 222 rem, 22-250 and 243..

There is a small gap in there.

But as you say the triple duce seems to cover a all  bases.  I think of it as a 200 yard, red mist gun, but I have hit PDs at 610 and 403 yards....not on the first shot but DRT.

Friend is leaving his house for a few weeks, I keep an eye on it for him.  Only 7 remote acres, secluded, but still in suburbs.  He is over run with ground hogs and his wife doesn't like killing.  So when they are gone, I plan to 'thin out' the coons and groundhogs.  This will work out nice with wife recuping, and keep me close to home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2020 at 23:33
I've seen your .222. I've seen you shoot a prairie dog at around 400 yards with your .222. 

You are going to have a hard time improving on your .222.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2020 at 04:45
Limited usage for the littler cartridges. They do very well for what they are intended for but for most hunters who haven't the time to pursue the game as much as others, they are a hard sell. I did however notice a small gap between the 22 and .243...hmmmm.....maybe a new fangled @#$%...for another thread I think.
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2020 at 07:57
Jsg  that would be a 23 cal.  never heard of one.  Maybe call it the 230 Bear, based upon a 222/223.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2020 at 20:51
Not to change the subject, but....

I never understood why the .222 is better than a .223. 

The .223 has more case capacity and should shoot the same bullets faster with no noticable difference in muzzle blast or recoil etc. 

But it seems like the .222 is just right. I think it's inherrantly more accurate and evidently is the right combination.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2020 at 22:37






hey Wingmaster, here are some places to find answers to your ?
Jul 28, 2008 - 223 Easy to find ammo. I'm not sure what the point of the .222 is. .223 is a faster and harder hitting rd. accoring to ballistic charts ...
Dec 28, 2011 - Accuracy will be an absolute must and I have heard that the 222 Rem has an advantage over the 223 in the accuracy category. What are your ...
Feb 14, 2018 - While the .222 Remington was the undisputed accuracy king for quite ... As it turns out according to the Federal web site ballistics calculator, ...
Dec 22, 2010 - 050 longer than the 222223 has a shorter neck than the 222 and a correspondingly longer body. 223 will give you about 200-300 fps with the same bullet over the 222222 has a well-deserved reputation for accuracy, earned on the rifle ranges of the world.
223 was produced the popularity of the round began to fade in America, but the .222 is still used in other countries around the world. The sport of bench rest ...
223 Remington. While the .222 Remington is rarely found in current production in America, its derivative cartridges are among the most popular in the world. In ...
Mar 29, 2019 - The .222 Remington enjoyed the accuracy crown from 1950 to the early ... With that, and the popularity and availability of the military surplus .223 ammunition, the .222 Remington began a slow fade off the stage. ... The .222 will give excellent hunting ballistics out t


Edited by Irish Bird Dog - 30 July 2020 at 22:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2020 at 06:14
222  vs  223

 

There is really little difference between the two cartridges.  The 223 is slightly larger, because the military geniuses that came up with it didn't want have it said that they picked a cartridge that was made for shooting 5 pound groundhogs.  The 223 is a tad larger, giving possibly more velocity; but not significantly more.

 

The real difference lies in the respective rifles that use these cartridges.  The 222 is mainly made in bolt rifles, while the 223 is mainly made in the AR or MSR.  The 223 was a poor choice for the military; but some dude had a bug and wanted a .22 caliber.  Personally, I'd have gone with a 222 mag opened up to 6mm.

 

Because the original 5.56 was a poor choice; they increased the bullet weight up to 62gr for better penetration.  and that leads to the reason the 222 and 223 are so different in rifles.  Most 223 rifles have rifling made to fire a 62 or large bullet.  Most 222 rifles are made with rifling to fire 45-55 grain bullets.  Heavier bullet, less velocity.

In addition most 5.56 rifles MSR have short barrels  (18") so again velocity drops.  While most bolt 222 rifles have longer 22-24 inch tubes.  For a shot time Remington did make a M700 with a 24" barrel and 1:14 rifling, an SP model; that model did give more performance than the same rifle in 222 rem but still not as much as the 222 rem magnum. Military 5.56 Nato is also loaded to higher pressures than the 222/223, to again give more performance.

 

So when comparing 223 and 222 one must consider the rifles in which they are fired.

 

The main reason to adopt a 223 round was that the average soldier fired the light recoiling 223 MUCH better than the then mil round, the 308.  And that certainly is important.  Hitting an enemy with a groundhog cartridge is mush better than missing an enemy with an elk cartridge. 


So it isn't necessarily the 222 is more accurate that the 223; it is that most rifles for the 222 rem are more accurate that MSR and 223 rifles made to shoot 62 grain bullets. 

 



Edited by BEAR - 31 July 2020 at 06:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2020 at 23:14
Good review Bear. 

That makes sense. 

Their are a few AR's that are accurate, but they require a Kingpin work over. 

I have an AR but never have tried to shoot groups with it. I assume it wouldn't be as accurate as any bolt gun I have. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lizard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2020 at 23:50
Wing,
  I too thought that AR-15's couldn't shoot as well as a bolt action.  Several years back at the range a friend had one in 223 that I shot.  It was a heavy barreled Rock River and a shooter.  Around that same time at the range another guy was shooting an AR in 204R.  It was a shooter too.  That's when I knew I wanted one.  That was when all guns and components were tight so I bought parts over the next year and built one with the help of a friend (part time gunsmith).  I selected .204 Ruger as the caliber with a heavy stainless Schilen  select match barrel with a Rock River trigger and various other parts.
  When working uploads I was able to shoot a 3 shot 3/4" group at 300 yards.  That rifle shoots as good as my Savage Model 12 bolt action in .204.
   Last week I had the barrels of both 204's threaded for one of my suppressors, which finally got. Suppressed rifles are REALLY NICE to shoot for less recoil (to see the hit) and less sound.  No need for ear protection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2020 at 07:55
I shoot one of KP's  well worked ARs.  very nice shooter, good groups at 100 yards.  But as KP says, the secret to keep them shooting/cycling is 'shoot 'em wet'.  lots of oil.

Some ARs are accurate, but you will never see them in bechrest competition...they just don't make the grade. Especially with the direct impingement design.  that syphons off pressure at varying rates; just isn't the consistency required for super accuracy.  If I wanted an accurate AR, might think of getting a short stroke piston model.  As Lizard says, with work, an AR might shoot as well as an out of the box Savage..  The AR design has a purpose; and the desin requirement was not for an accurate rifle, BUT for a light recoiling rifle that the average GI could shoot more accurately and with full auto capability.

Going back to the Op, my 222 rem in out of the box with just a trigger adjustment.  It shoots 10 shot groups under 3/4 inch (100 yds).  I'm sure the rifle could do better, unfortunately with my eyes, muscle response, etc  I can't do it.

Maybe it is time for another postal shoot,  .22 or smaller  only????


Edited by BEAR - 01 August 2020 at 07:56
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