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.40 knock down power

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Topic: .40 knock down power
Posted By: Spot shooter
Subject: .40 knock down power
Date Posted: 20 July 2003 at 13:31
Hey, which is better the .40 s&w, or is a 9mm just fine? 



Replies:
Posted By: CB900F
Date Posted: 20 July 2003 at 13:59

Spot;

There are just about as many opinions on this one (or throw in the .45ACP too if you want to get people really riled up) as there are shooters.

My personal choice is the .40.  I'm carrying an H&K USP compact in .40 in varient 2 with ambi added.  I use the Winchester 180gr SXT.  This comes to just about exactly what the FBI tests concluded was the best combination of bore/weight/velocity back in the post-Miami tests.  That's when the Feds were carrying 9's & got the crap shot outta themselves because they couldn't put down the bad guys fast enough.

To be fair, the self defense ammo is by far superior now than in the late '80's.  All of it is better now.  So as far as I can tell, the difference margins would remain about the same.  The .40 has an excellent reputation in the real world for being able to end a fight.  The 9's may be a little easier to conceal.  Pay your nickle & take your choice.  Any of them is so much better than nothing that it makes no difference, if you see what I mean.

900F



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Birth certificate!? He don't need no steenkink birth certificate!!


Posted By: huntin1
Date Posted: 20 July 2003 at 14:08
Spot shooter,

Most think that the 40 S&W is better than the 9mm me included. I got the following from the Winchester ammo site:
40 S&W 180gr JHP Velocity-1010fps, Energy-408 foot pounds

9mm 147 gr JHP Velocity-990fps, Energy-320 foot pounds

Both are at the muzzle, and are the heaviest bullet offered.

When it comes to handgun ammo I think the bigger the chunk of lead, the better. 40's better than a 9 but a 45 is better than a 40. I carry a 40 for duty only because a 45 isn't one of my choices.

huntin1

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"Never corner something meaner than you"


Posted By: klallen
Date Posted: 20 July 2003 at 15:11

"which is better the .40 s&w, or is a 9mm just fine?"

Was fiddling with the same question a while back.  Found that there are as many supporters for the 9 as there were for the 40.  Just depended on who you chatted with at the time.

Fought with it for a year or so and then the last gun show up here settled things for me real nicely.  Picked up a Sig 2340.  Now, when I have the hankering I've got either the 40 S&W or the .357 Sig at my disposal.  Neat way to cover the .400 and .355 caliber classes in one tidy little package.  I love it when things work out that way    .  >>  klallen



Posted By: Triggerguard
Date Posted: 22 July 2003 at 01:24

Knock down power? No such animal exists, in a handgun. Muzzle energy and other considerations like that are a very rough measure, at best. My own personal taste leans toward a good JHP in .45ACP as a defense load. ( I currently carry Pro-Loads'  +P185 JHP), but I never felt unarmed with a 9x19 carrying Corbon's +p 115 gr JHP.

The various 147 gr 9mm JHPs have a pretty dismal performance record in the real world. I believe a smaller diameter bullet needs all the speed it can get. At a muzzle velocity of 990 FPS, you essentially have a rimless .38 Special. Why bother?



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"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke


Posted By: Spot shooter
Date Posted: 22 July 2003 at 12:33

Yup,

   I'm thinkin the 40 is the way to go, you can't make up fer bullet mass.

Spot



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 July 2003 at 16:23

If you are serious about this question, Evan Marshall has compiled some data that might be of interest to you.  Of course, if you are going to study Marshall, you should also study his chief critic, Dr Fackler.  Both are on the internet.

To be brief, Marshall has developed a one shot stop ratings percentage based on law enforcement after action shooting reports and medical records/autopsies, both relate to humans who have been shot, only in the torso, and no more than once, by a handgun bullet:

1) The highest rated 9mm load is a 115 grain Federal JHP +P+ at 91 percent.

2) The highest rated 40 S&W load is a 165 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP at 94 percent.

3) The highest rated calibers are a tie between the 357 magnum and 45 ACP, both at 96 percent.  The top rated 357 magnum is a tie between the 125 grain Federal JHP and the 125 grain Remington JHP.  The top rated 45 ACP is a tie between the 230 grain Federal Hydra Shok JHP, 185 grain Remington JHP +P and the 185 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP.

Basically, as I see it, any 90th percentile rated caliber is well worth carrying as a primary self defense handgun.  Nonetheless, in a dangerous situation, I prefer a 45 ACP, 357 magnum or 40 S&W to a 9mm.  I've owned and tested all of these calibers and what I'm giving  you now is my personal opinion as opposed to that of Marshall or Fackler.

Best advice I can give you:

1) Buy what fits your hand.  We are all different.

2) Buy what you enjoy shooting most for the more you like it the more you are probably going to shoot it and that's the best way I know to become a decent handgun shot, by shooting.  So:  Practice.  Practice.  Practice.

CJ

 



Posted By: North Logan
Date Posted: 22 July 2003 at 17:22

Can't argue with what CJ said above. Use the pistol that fits your hand the best, in the cartridge that you feel the most comfortable with. For me, I'd feel equally good about a BHP in 9mm with some good loads or a Glock Model 22 or 27 in .40 S&W with a good 180 grain JHP.

Regards, Marcus.



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"COLTS & PONY CARS"...


Posted By: Spot shooter
Date Posted: 23 July 2003 at 00:24

NL, CJ,

   That's what started all of this, I'm a wheelgun man by birth and I've only felt one or two pistols that fit my hand well.  However, I don't like the lever setup's they have.  First one is the baby eagle, safety is on the slide, should be on the base.  The gun is a knock off of the CZ75 that has the safety on the base, however the safety on the CZ doesn't require any energy at all to throw.  So for me it's a no-no.  I haven't spend that much time looking into pistols, but i do love the slide release and safety on the HK USP.  For now I've decided to put off buying a pistol, but I'd still like to find the gun I would buy.  I think your right about the gun fitting your hand, if it doesn't you'll never shoot it well. 

Thanks!

Spot



Posted By: Parmatus
Date Posted: 24 July 2003 at 08:44

Although I am new herebouts, I would like to post right into this one.

Where preformance matters, the .40 has it all over most 9mm loads, I am a fan of revolvers, I'd have my Model 13 S&W with me everywhere if life allowed, however as pure space, wardrobe restraints and real life must intrude, I recently upgraded from 9mm to 40 S&W in the form of the Kahr K 40 and haven't looked back.

As to saftey issues....well, I have not heard many people call a well-tuned revolver unsafe, a good DAO auto suits me just as well.

However, whatever firearm one chooses is significantly better than none at all, so...exercise your right to carry concealed should you have it, and pick the biggest bloody gun you can deal with



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Outside of dogs, books are mans best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx


Posted By: CB900F
Date Posted: 24 July 2003 at 14:40

Spot;

If the only H&K you handled was the USP, also make sure to get your hands on a USPc.  The compact USP's also come in two versions, the 9 & 40 and the .45, which is on it's own frame. 

If you haven't heard, H&K is coming out with a new pistol that's, so far, called the 2000, and it's totally ambi.  The slide stop & operating levers are on both sides of the gun.  The magazine release is also ambi as always.

900F



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Birth certificate!? He don't need no steenkink birth certificate!!


Posted By: Spot shooter
Date Posted: 24 July 2003 at 16:14

900F,

    Not planning on gettin one soon, but if I ever get a second pistol to accompany my Taurus 41 Mag, it'd be that compact USP.  Can't beleive the price though $750!  Ouch, guess you get what you pay for though.

Spot



Posted By: NH_Hunter
Date Posted: 25 July 2003 at 01:33

YEAH H&K, they DO know we lefties are out there!!!  Next step is Ruger

NH_Hunter



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Leverguns make me smile
Proud Left Handed Shooter


Posted By: NH_Hunter
Date Posted: 25 July 2003 at 01:34

O wait, you can just spend your money on the Ruger P 97! That is fairly ambi. I am not sure about hte mag release though. I havent seen the pistol for a while. Get the DAO one. that is one sweet handgun.

NH_Hunter



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Leverguns make me smile
Proud Left Handed Shooter


Posted By: CB900F
Date Posted: 25 July 2003 at 14:44

NH;

There are a number of things Ruger needs to work on with the P-series pistols in my opinion.  The single biggest problem I have with them is the slide-mounted operating lever.  It's ergonomically incorrect.  Think, on the draw, the thumb is coming down & forward to achieve grip.  In order to go from safe to fire, the Ruger, Smith, Beretta, and most other slide mounted operating levers require an up movement.  None of the slide safety guns mentioned can be carried in condition 1.  Then there is the Ruger trigger, one of the kindest things I can say is; it's less than state of the art. 

I've experienced two of the Ruger P-series, an original P85 and a P90.  I've not shot one of the DAO versions.

900F

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Birth certificate!? He don't need no steenkink birth certificate!!


Posted By: NH_Hunter
Date Posted: 25 July 2003 at 15:32

I have not shot one with a safety. I just have only had experience with the DAO and i really like it. The gun handles nicely too. The first trigger pull is tough, but isnt it on all pistols with the hammer not pulled back.

NH_Hunter



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Leverguns make me smile
Proud Left Handed Shooter


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 July 2003 at 20:37

No, some pistols do not work with the traditional single action first and double action second hammer concept.  Example:  the Kahr mentioned by Parmatus.  If you go to their web site, you will see how they do it and be able to read quite a few commentaries on their design.  Each trigger pull is the same, at least with the four Kahr handguns that I have owned.  One in 9mm and three in 40 S&W caliber.  Without exception, all were fairly long but smooth pulls.  Personally, I find these handguns very accommodating for concealed carry and are fun, for me, to shoot.

My best 3 shot groups, with my Kahr's, are:

1) 3/16 of an inch at 6 feet, standing, off hand, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

2) 5/16 of an inch at 21 feet, standing, off hand, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

3) 6/16 of an inch at 75 feet, off a bench, using an Outer's Pistol rest, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

4) 8 and 6/16 of an inch at 100 yards, off a bench, using an Outer's Pistol rest, with my 9mm Kahr MK9.

5) 6 and 8/16 of an inch at 150 yards, standing, off hand, two hand grip, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

To date, I've owned and tested one MK9 (with night sights), one MK40 (now traded away) and two K40's (one with night sights and one without).

As to ammunition, I like both the 155 grain Federal Hydra Shok JHP and the 165 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP.  They are ranked, by Marshall, at 93 and 94 percent, respectively, for one shot stops with a torso hit.

If anyone is interested in the fps and fpe I get with this ammunition, in my Kahr's, please ask and I'll post it.

One of my fatal flaws, that sometimes wears me out, is giving too much information.  More than folks care to read.  It's become a habit that I'm trying to break.

CJ

 

 



Posted By: Kingpin
Date Posted: 28 July 2003 at 16:15
CJ, looks like you stole the show, AND my notes.....LOL. Good post. In reality, it has been discovered a long time ago that calibers don't matter, it's all bullet placement. The FBI wrote a neat paper a few years back. In it, it states that the .22 LR is as deadly as anything on the market. They don't mean that we should all carry .22's though. A number or shootings have used the .32 auto. We all know that this also isn't an ideal self defense cartridge, but in these cases it would seem to have been perfect. As far as sheer power on 20% ballistic gelatin with femurs in them, the first place prize goes to the .357 Mag loaded with silvertips. According to my friends in the FBI, this package is as lethal as it gets, surpassing even the .44 Mag. Practice always takes the worry out of being close. Some time back, statistics showed that most gunfights took 1.2 rounds on average to stop the threat, at a distance of twelve feet or less. I have several personal favorites as my carry guns. Depending on the weather or social situation, I have been known to carry a P-226 SIG 9MM, a Colt's 1911 in .45 ACP that I customized for this purpose, a 4" S&W model 65 in .357, and a S&W model 60 in .38 special. There have been times, again depending on the social situation that I knew I was going to be in, carried two of the above. As I said, practice helps a lot, and caliber choice is less important because you should carry what you can handle the best, and hit the target with. There are also times when over penatration is a concern. Here is where ammo choice comes into play. I don't place a lot of store in hollow point handgun bullets, because depending on the weather, clothing comes into consideration. Many hollow point bullets have a tendency to cut heavy clothing and turn the bullet into what amounts to a FMJ bullet. In order for hollow point bullets to do what they are supposed to do everytime, 1800 fps is the magic number. Glaser bullets (the ones with shot and resin in a jacket) have proved largely inneffective against a lot of things. I have seen the after effects of Federal Hydro-Shocks on thick clothing, like one would wear in cold weather. They were highly disappointing in a number of cases like these. I usually stoke my .357 with silvertips, my 9MM and .45 with FMJ's and my .38 with soft lead round nose bullets. Again, I can't stress enough that practice is most important. All the calibers that I mentioned are lethal, but shot placement is more important than any caliber selection. Lots of folks are duped into believing in magical bullets and that's what manufacturers depend on. For myself, I only use facts that are printed by reputable laboratories and what I know personally to be true. I shoot a lot, on a daily basis, conduct tests and report results. I don't care much for any of the local gun magazines "bullet of the month" offering, with promises of more penatration, and nonsensical antics within the target. I have however, before I learned more, and was gainfully employed in the field, been a magic bullet chaser..................Kingpin

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There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.


Posted By: Triggerguard
Date Posted: 29 July 2003 at 01:29

I agree somewhat...shot placement is everything. However, I cannot see carrying FMJ in 9x19 .45 ACP, maybe. Yes, heavy clothing has been shown to plug the HP and cause the bullet to behave like FMJ, but it doesn't happen 100% of the time. I want every percentage point I can get on my side. Yes, it MIGHT not expand, but depending on the circumstances, it might. FMJ will never expand. Period.

Living in South Texas, I don't have to worry much about somebody wearing heavy clothing. Just like choosing your hunting ammunition for certain game, we should chose our defense loads for our local conditions.

I also have a hard time accepting the 1800FPS as a threshold for effective expansion. Twenty years ago, that was very likely true. I just don't see it with today's bullets. In my admitedly limited animal testing, I get expansion in most JHP bullets at about 900 to 950 FPS...lead SWC HP in .38 special at 750 to 800.

What we do agree on is there is definately no "magic bullet". There are just way too many variables to be dogmatic.



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"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke


Posted By: Kingpin
Date Posted: 29 July 2003 at 11:06
NH, the biggest draws for repairs to my gunsmithing service are the Ruger P series pistols. I like the looks of them, but as far as defending myself with one will only say that any P series Ruger is better than a sharp stick. They ARE heavy enough to make a good club when it leaves you cold, but I wouldn't take one to a dog fight if it was defending champion. I will say on Rugers behalf that they do stand by their product in the way of prompt parts delivery (and I order a lot of parts from them for that paperweight) but a perp might not want to wait for you to get parts so you can shoot it out with him. That being said, they are inexpensive though. I had a customer ask me to order him one for self defense. I immediately invited his attention to the SIG line of pistols. He told me that they were too expensive, and I countered with, if you're buying it for self defense, just how much is your cheap ass worth. To make a long story short, I sold him a SIG that very night. No one who is serious about self defense buys a P series Ruger. That job predominantly belongs to the 1911 (not that chinese junk) SIG Sauer, and H&K, trailing closely are any S&W revolver over .32 cal. As far as competitions go, I have never seen a P series Ruger in any IPSC or IDPA match. That's not to say that there aren't any, just to say that they aren't there for long, as soon as the owner see's what he's competing against he dumps it in favor of the high priced spread.........Kingpin

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There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 July 2003 at 12:29

Kingpin - Looks like we share quite a few similar opinions and experiences.

For example, I used to work with the FBI, for quite a number of years, on a fairly regular basis.  This included the FBI offices in Montana, Idaho and Washington.  Without exception I found them to be good folks.

Now, as to specifics, just for the sake of discussion, and not to argue:

1) Clearly, research shows that some calibers and bullets are more effective, when it comes to killing people, than others.  More effective being the two key words.  For example:  The odds of being incapacitated or killed, by one shot to the torso, where the vast majority of shooting victims are shot, with a 60 grain Winchester Silver Tip JHP in 32 ACP caliber, according to the Marshall data, which is available via the internet, is 66 percent.  The odds of being incapacitated or killed with a 125 grain Remington JHP in 357 magnum caliber is, according to the same source, 96 percent.  Big difference.  Can either bullet kill you?  Of course.  Does bullet placement matter?  Of course.  Should we take a look at what happens when someone is shot only once?  Why not, maybe one bullet is all we can get into someone, plus, if we can get more than one bullet into them, that may up the odds even more in our favor.  Should we take a look at what happens when a person is shot in the torso?  Why not, that is where most people, who are incapacitated or killed, according to statistics, get shot.  I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything here.  I just want folks to be informed.  Me, I've owned both 32 ACP and 357 magnum handguns.  I've also carried, shot and tested both calibers with the loads described.  Different situations often call for different armament.  Key point:  Both of us, you and I, are making informed choices, even though those choice are being based on different criteria and preferences, but, most important, neither of us is trying to tell someone else what they should be carrying in their particular life situations.  Why is that important?  Bottom line, for me, I don't want to have to ever look into someone's eyes and say:  I'm sorry, I picked the wrong gun, cartridge or load and that choice, that I made, contributed to your loved one's death.  Their life.  Their choice. 

2) Hydra shok bullets, as I understand the research, were specifically designed to expand in humans at sub sonic speeds of somewhere around 1100 feet per second or less.  Isn't this factually true?

3) As to JHP bullets "filling up" with stuff, isn't that what they are supposed to do so as to open up and expand?  Do JHP's sometimes fail to expand?  Sure.  Sooner or later most designs fail.  Some are better than others.  Key question:  Do you want the performance that a JHP is designed to give?  For me, the answer is yes and I don't know how else I could get it without using JHP bullets.  Personally, I've had bad luck with LRN bullets, when shooting into living things, such as a black bear, and, to me, when shooting into human beings, the unintended consequences of a through and through shot are too great for me to be comfortable with FMJ bullets.  I guess there are other alternatives, but, so far, for me, personally, I'm sticking with JHP handgun bullets or a shotgun with either 00 buck or number 4 shot for self defense.

4) In the Marshall data, for example, every bullet, regardless of caliber, with a ranking in the 90th percentile is a JHP.  This data, again, is not universally accepted and has lots of critics.  Nonetheless, the percentages are based on what happens when one bullet,  and only one bullet, hits a human torso and stops an attack by incapacitating or killing the attacker.  Marshall calls this a one shot stop.  The results that he compiles and then writes about come from law enforcement after action shooting incident reports and medical reports including autopsies.  Dr Fackler is his chief critic and if you read Marshall you should also read Fackler.

I hope this post stimulates some good positive and friendly discussion.  I've also written, in this same topic area, a post on SELF DEFENSE ISSUES and, over in the Shotgun topic area, a post on SELF DEFENSE AND SHOTGUNS.  Self defense is very important and well worth some polite discussion.

Further, I'd like to suggest some ground rules for this discussion, such as: 

1) Our goal is to help folks make informed self defense choices through positive and, hopefully, meaningful discussion. 

2) There is no one choice that works best for everybody. 

3) At the end of the discussion:  You choose what  you want.  I choose what I want.  Your life = your choice.  My life = my choice.  Period. 

CJ

 



Posted By: CB900F
Date Posted: 29 July 2003 at 14:21

Fella's;

One thing I've noticed that comes up again & again, is the chemical state of the person being shot.  In other words, anecdotal accounts of somebody being harder to stop because of their drugged up state.  Nowhere in E&M or Fackler do I see this issue addressed.  Now, I admit that I don't follow either camp closely, so if it is covered I might very well have missed it.  But, if it isn't covered, do either of you know why?  Or if you don't know, would you care to speculate?

900F



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Birth certificate!? He don't need no steenkink birth certificate!!


Posted By: Kingpin
Date Posted: 30 July 2003 at 11:51
CB, while it's a fact that druggies are usually so high that they need to contact the closest air traffic controller just to sit down, their altered mind doesn't allow them (for the most part) to feel pain like a sober or unstoned person. (Is "unstoned" a real word?) I have heard a lot of first hand accounts from the local Five-0 about shooting a dope head, and all of them gruesome. Again it was all hearsay so I can't confirm it. What I will confirm is, that anyone, even a dopey, catching a bullet in the brain pan will hit the ground like a sack of shit. The same goes for an instant incapacition shot. Large boney structures and vertabra are all prime examples of instant incapacitation. Now, on a humerous note, I did see, first hand, a drunk guy beat the living hell out of six cops, and not until three more show up was he subdued. I believe that he just got tired and gave up. The pepper gas really pissed him off. That's an important point to remember. Use pepper on the steak, not on someone mad.

Another thing that you can forget, is knock down power. I don't believe that I have to elaborate on that.

Then there's the belief that whenever anyone gets shot, they fly away from the shooter like a grenade went off right beside them. It just don't happen. People in this country and other well developed countries all watch TV and know when you get shot that you must fall down and give up, but you have to co through a bunch of contortions first. Nerves may make you gyrate when hit, but bullets don't. A good example of this is all of the troopers in Somalia giving the M-16 bad press because a lot of them said that they had to shoot some of those crazies three or four times to knock them down. Let's analyze this for a moment.

First, there aren't that many TV's in Somalia.

Second, these wretches didn't know how to act when they got shot because they haven't seen the first Die Hard movie, much the latest jillion remakes.

Third, when a 5.56 MM projo smacks flesh, the wounds are very lethal and massive. In a lot of cases death is caused by massive hemorrhage caused by the high velocity bullet upsetting and fragmenting. The troopers were so pumped up that they really didn't see anyone falling and dying as they shot.

Fourth, the battle there consisted of fighting in streets that were walled on both sides of the streets. I was told by some of them that it was like a video game, with targets running by and some stopping to shoot. The boogers were running into view, shooting, and ducking behing breaks built in the walls for pedestrians. They may have been shot, the troopers didn't have many chances to check out who they shot.

Fifth, it may sound racist, but I assure you that it's not intended to be, and that is, all of the boogers were thin, underfed, and that would make them seem to all look alike. Thus, when a trooper shot someone, he thought that he didn't hit him hard enough to stop him when in reality, he was shooting a thin, gaunt, man who kind of resembled the last one of them that he engaged. It was a fight, our guys didn't have time to look for ID cards, they were just trying to get out of a bad situation

I got these facts from the actual accounts of some of the guys who were there and I know them personally. The movie wasn't bad, but the guys told me that it didn't begin to show how much it really sucked. I also read the book. It sold lots of copies,and that's what the author was going for. He had a lot of facts, but I believe that there's a lot of things that were embellished

CJ brought up Dr Fackler. He's a friend of mine, and he just doesn't bullshit. I remember his telling a story about a stand-off situation where a coroner was called. He said that he radioed that he was enroute, as it was just a short distance from the store that he was in. While driving to the scene, he got a call, cancelling the coroner. He just had to see the guy that had been resurrected. When he arrived on scene, and walked to the house, he noticed a cop sitting on the curb with his head in his hands. The cops in the house told him that the guy was the one on the curb, so he went to talk to him. The cop told him that they decided to go into the house using a dynamic entry. They smashed the door, and the guy on the curb was the first one in, He saw the perp pointing a .22 cal pistol at him and the perp fired. The cop on the curb just knew that the perp had killed him and dropped like a wet feedsack. The perp immediatly dropped his gun and no more shots were fired. That's when they called the coroner. Within minutes of the incident, the cop on the curb started coming around and it was discovered that he was untouched. He told Fackler, "When I saw him pointing that gun and it fired, I knew that I was dead." This is a good point for mind over matter, his body just shut down. I believe the curb cop works in a 7-11 now. the lesson to be learned here, is, from Yogi Berra(sp) who said, "It ain't over 'till it's over." Self defense isn't just a brawl anymore. Mindset should dictate that whenever you defend yourself, do it like you intend to kill the threat, make it go away, or hospitalize it for a long time. No one just fistfights anymore............Kingpin

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There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 July 2003 at 13:07

Kingpin makes some excellent points about what transpired in Somalia. 

Many of us know folks who were there.

As I recall, one of the problems was that the majority of troops were issued the green tip 223 ammunition designed to penetrate light armor.  Result:  On people, especially emaciated people, more often than not, through and through shots.

A few Delta guys brought in 308's and although I don't know what ammo they were firing, had better luck with the one shot one kill goal.

Bottom line:  Mogadishu was, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, an old pal of mine from days gone by, as stated in, I think, Heartbreak Ridge, a movie:  One big cluster----, period and end of story.

As to Fackler, I've never met him but he sure writes like a man who is not only very bright but well informed.  As I wrote in another post today, be nice if Fackler and Marshall could put their differences aside and work together.  Marshall has some great information gathering contacts, as a former law enforcement officer, and Fackler would be great at interpreting that information.  Much better, in my opinion, than Marshall.  Why?  Marshall lacks the scientific, including math, background that Fackler has.  Fackler earned a MD degree.  Marshall has a master's degree and no real background in science or math, especially statistics.

The drug stuff that 900F asked us to comment on, I had a lot to say so I wrote it in another post in this same Handgun forum.  Reason:  We are not really talking so much now about the 40 S&W as we were earlier in this thread.  Me, when I go back to try to find something, I always seem to find it sooner if it is the name of a posted topic as opposed to a part of a posted topic that may or may not have a relevant, to me, topic name attached to it that I can remember.

CJ

 

 



Posted By: Kingpin
Date Posted: 30 July 2003 at 15:14
CJ, the green tip ammo with the steel penatrator is designed for poking holes in body armor. For the most part, it still acts like 55 gr ball when something starts applying the brakes suddenly. The only difference is, that the penetrator still remains intact. Still plenty of frag when it upsets. I recall a surgeon stating that anyone in Desert storm that got shot, had an average of 9 perforations. He never said which side, so I am assuming that he also operated on Iraqi's in addition to the good guys............Kingpin

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There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.


Posted By: waksupi
Date Posted: 30 July 2003 at 17:25
Does anyone make a .40 in a 1911 configuration?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31 July 2003 at 08:34

Kingpin - Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

CJ

 



Posted By: Deputy Al
Date Posted: 31 July 2003 at 10:40

Waksupi--

Springfield Armory lists a 1911A1 variant in 40 S&W, and Browning makes a Hi-Power variant in this caliber as well. 



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Deputy Al


Posted By: Kingpin
Date Posted: 31 July 2003 at 11:34
Waksupi, I build them too. To date, I have never had a return or a complaint.............Kingpin

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There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.


Posted By: CB900F
Date Posted: 31 July 2003 at 13:24

Waksupi;

I've seen em' in the Kimber catalogue.  I've also been told not to hold your breath till you see one for real.

900F



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Birth certificate!? He don't need no steenkink birth certificate!!



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