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If it were just me, I'd get an M1911 .45 ACP...

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Printed Date: 22 September 2018 at 16:20
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Topic: If it were just me, I'd get an M1911 .45 ACP...
Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Subject: If it were just me, I'd get an M1911 .45 ACP...
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 13:25
...however, it's not just me. We are also getting this in case my wife ever needs to use it in self-defense, so I am open to suggestions.
 
She will, of course, learn how to use it properly and get very familiar with it in the process.
 
With that in mind, I'm leaning toward a 9mm, but what say you? This is - believe it or not - new territory for me.
 
Thanks in advance -
 
Ron


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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen



Replies:
Posted By: Go-ddaed
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 14:14
A 1911 is not the easiest pistol to start on. Not sure if she plans on carrying or for around the house? Something unsettling about a condition one pistol that is not in a holster. Limp wristing is also a problem. Striker fire like Glocks or Springfield’s are easier to learn on but require specific trigger finger disapline. People without training always stick their finger on the trigger. If it were me and from the sound of it not many if any people have much experience with handguns I’d start with a revolver. They are much more straightforward. 38 +P is as good or better than most 9mm. You can start with light loads and work up. A .357 obviously works that way too but not many would use a full on magnum round instead of a +P.

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Palindrome wannabe


Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 14:33
Not a bad idea at all, GD ~
 
This most likely wouldn't be for carrying around much.


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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: Go-ddaed
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 15:17
No magazine to fail. Can be kept loaded indefinitely. Easy to see if loaded. Not as picky about being clean to operate.

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Palindrome wannabe


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 15:49
dd is good alvise.

I always recommend a 38 4" revolver.  Shorter barrels are difficult to shoot...longer are a little cumbersome.

The smiths are the best, but $$$.  The S&W model 10 with a 4" barrel is goood.  lot of these used at gun shows or pawn shops.    Ruger sp101 in 4" is fine.

Taurus makes clones of S&W in Brazil; at low cost.

For new shooter, I ALWAYS recommend 158 gr SWC standard target loaded 38.  P+ really isn't needed and the new person will handle the target load great.  To defend your self...first you MUST hit the target!

While guns like SS, I always recomment blued...cheaper and it LOOKS like gun not a cigarette lighter or a toy.

Just thoughts

this is perfect    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/718686706" rel="nofollow - http://www.gunbroker.com/item/718686706



Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 15:52
Should have said.  all the revolver I recommend at single/double action without a safety.  to a newbie it is just like shooting a cap gun.  aim squezze strongly...bang.  of course as a shooter progresses, he/she can shoot the gun single action (cocking it first with the hammer) then firing more accuratly.

more just thoughts.


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 16:11
I've taken a number of new women shooters out. The two biggest things I've learned, number 1, don't have preconceived idea of what pistol, they'll be comfortable with. Number 2, don't pick one for them, they will be more adapt to use it and become proficient, if it's the one they choose. If you're going to share a pistol, let her make final decision, you can adapt to her choice easier, than visa versa.

Try to shoot as many, before buying as possible, many times what looks good, doesn't feel good, when you shoot it. I doubt Havre is big enough, to have gun shop, with range that has pistols to try or rent, but I bet Great Falls does. If you were closer, I'd let you (and her) try out few different types.

While S&W model 10 4-6" barrel in 38sp or same in model 66 are very often recommended, for new shooters and they're very easy to shoot well, there will be strong preference of one grip style over another. I would stay away from stub nosed revolver for new shooter, they're much harder to shoot well, than 4" or 6". I say S&W because it's classic, but Ruger and Taurus also make similar type revolvers, at mid and lower price points.

Many prefer a pistol over revolver, preferring the feel and less intimidating look. Glock 17 or 19 is very easy, for many to shoot, the more compact models, are easier to carry, but harder to shoot. There are many makers of this style of pistol, price points vary widely, from $250-600, you can often find used ones also. I prefer Springfield XD, because of grip safety, but Glock is more popular. I also have several Taurus pistols, in the compact size range, but they're harder to shoot well.

If you watch, you can often find good deals on Beretta 92s, GF's pawn shops, should be loaded with them, with base there. I have one, but I don't like it's trigger style, but it's nearly as popular as Glock 17.


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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: Wing master
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 22:31
I agree with Bear on a revolver being my idea of the perfect beginners defense gun. I also agree with Robert that she should pick out something that she likes. 

J&G sales usually has police trade in Smith & Wesson model 10's for around $300. 

http://www.jgsales.com/handguns-c-16_211_431.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.jgsales.com/handguns-c-16_211_431.html

I bought one of these from Buds Gun Shop a few years ago when they were $269. It had quite a bit of holster wear, but it didn't look like it had been shot much at all. I took the side plate off to clean it up and it looked like new inside. With the holster wear you don't worry too much about banging it up at the range. 

If your budget allows, I would really recomend a 4 inch model 19. That's in my opinion the closest thing to the perfect revolver. It's a .357 so you can shoot .38 Specials in it and if you want to you can load it up with .357's. They balance great, shoot great and with target grips the recoil is very manageable. 

Just a thought. 

Let us know what you decide on. If you end up with a S&W revolver I might have some accessories you can try out.   

Wing master


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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 02:33
Problen with most autos is they are too complicated to operate under stress, by the un=trained.

Two experiences demonstrated this to me:

A guy was trying to shoot  a car wounded deer along the road, about a 6 foot shot with a Beretta thaat was his CCW.  As he aimed and tried to take the safety off..he instead hit the mag release.  The mag dropped out, making his gun useless.  He had been carryibng this gun for 2 years and had some range time in.  I picked up the mag; and he was shook up and asked me to shoot the deer, I did.

I got an auto from a friend to check and repair.  His mother had tried to commit suicide with it  She was still trying when police got there; she kept squezzzing the trigger..no bang.  The gun was perfectbut the safety was on when she tried.  I fired 100 rounds thru it and gave it back with some instuction to son.

Most autos have a slide stop, mag release, decocker/safety plus.  All just more things a newbie must learn to perfection and remember in a high stress moment.

One auto, I have, a Diamondback 380, a micro pistol. small, light weight.  Functions fine with different brands of ammo.  made in the USA (florida).  It has only a small mag release.  If one wanted a small purse/nightstand auto this would be OK.  Cost me $179 new this year.
While the Ruger 380 LCP is a decent low cost gun; it has 4 buttons: mag release, safety, slide hold open, and slide take-down.


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 06:58
Gonna throw in on this with the Ruger pink lady SP-101. Has a 3 or 4 inch barrel, stay away from the snubbie, smaller grip then the bigger rubber on the standard 101 and can be had with the crimson trace laser if so desired. A .38+P at danger close will do everything a .357 will do at 50 yards. Gold dots or Critical Defense are a sound loading for home use. No reason to complicate matters with the auto for home use. Under duress even the best trained make mistakes. Wife has a Rossi 971 4" in 38/357 and the boy has the 92F as that was his qualifying arm and the one he is most used too. I have the ole' 50 and the STI Nitro 10 and a long history of auto's. I would still prefer a wheel gun for home use.......and hunting.

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 13:08
Well, I was all prepared to have a lot of information to talk about with her, and she's changed her mind, already! Confused
 
So, now, instead of looking for one that is mostly tailored to her, the plan will change, I guess. I will just see about getting one that is mostly "for me," that she "might" have to use someday, if someone comes in while I am gone.
 
 


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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 18:58
I would still go with 38/357 revolver, with 4" barrel, medium frame, mfg of your choice. Adjustable target style sights, make it more useful trail gun, fixed of course are more "fool proof".

If it's fun to shoot, you'll shoot it more and if it's able to handle 38sp, it'll be more fun and cheaper to shoot. I wouldn't give up on her, she's about half way there, if she sees you and kids shooting it, she's adapt to join in.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 21:48
Well there is always this if you still have the itch....

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-army-selling-most-powerful-013200617.html



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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: Wing master
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 22:46
This is my model 19. I still think that it would be a great defense gun for you and maybe some day for your wife. 




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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 08:24
Agree with Robert .  4" model 19  perfect.

Of course I like the Model 15 in 4"  Combat Masterpiece  38 special  (p+).
there is even one for sale in MT!!!!!!
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/smith-wesson-revolvers-model-15/smith-wesson-15-3-38-special.cfm?gun_id=100943838" rel="nofollow - http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/smith-wesson-revolvers-model-15/smith-wesson-15-3-38-special.cfm?gun_id=100943838


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 09:57
The model 19 pictured is Randy's.

If you compare it to Model 15, Bear linked to, notice the different grip shape and size, closer to Model 10.

Grip size is a personal preference, many shoot better with target style grips, like model 19 (K frame) and my favorite model 28 (N frame). Many prefer the smaller grips like model 10 and 15 have (K frame).

I have large hands, but have the small sized grips, on my carry revolvers. Target grips (oversized) are preferred by many, they spread out recoil better in hand.

If you can, shoot one in each grip style, most people have preference for one, over the other.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 11:03
Ron has taken the 'wife gun' off the table.

BUT, I've seen the "let the wife/girl friend"  pick her own become a disaster....IF you taker her to a gun shop.  The sales 'kid' will promote what he thinks, and she will pick what stricks her fancy.  Both will usually end up as a poor choice.

Take a new shooter out to the range on a week day, with some "borrowed guns" that YOU think make safe guns for her.  I usually do a DA 9mm, sa Army 38, K frame 22, J-frame 38 with very light loads and rubber grips, 32 pocket auto, 25 Beretta.  Don't take a 22 auto...they will love that one.

After she decides, with your judgment, then she can pick the grips...pink molded plastic?


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 13:10
I didn't mean let her loose unsupervised in gun shop, that'd be like giving a them a platinum Visa on black Friday and telling them whatever they want.

I most often start them on 38sp revolver and a service sized 9mm pistol. If they want to try others, I usually have smaller 9mm pistols, as well as larger calibers along.

I've had them prefer revolver over pistol most often, but a couple, my daughter included, don't like nor shoot revolvers well. I've had a couple want to shoot a 45 pistol and really like it. Most often, they just want to shoot something bigger, to show they can and go back to the lighter recoiling ones. I had one lady, I work with beg to shoot SBH, she handled 45 recoil well, so I let her, she ended up shooting up what ammo, I had along.

Unless they're a kid or real green, I don't confuse issue with 22s.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 14:02
I take a BH with medium 357 loads for the single action revolver.  very gentle, and accurate with the 5.5 barrel.  Never had a woman like it best.

They all seem to prefer the autos best.  when I ask why, they say "it is simple to operate";  I never could figure out a female mind (might be an anbigoous thought!)


Posted By: Goatlocker
Date Posted: 23 November 2017 at 20:10
You guys have made some very good points on this topic.  I agree to some degree with everyone's view.  I'm a 1911 .45auto guy, having carried one downrange while in the USN for a number of years, and now have the same pistol for part of my home defense line-up.  My wife and daughters have all shot it at paper with no discomfort, so don't be too sure it's too much for the wife off hand.  That said, a point often overlooked by the "let her pick her own gun" crowd, is the mental readiness of the novice shooter in properly managing the pistol they pick on their own, in a stress situation.  While my wife liked shooting semi-autos, I know her well enough to judge her not ready to fully manage a semi-auto in high stress life or death circumstance, and...here's the other thing, she will not take the time needed to become an expert with that platform.  Running clearing drills, and mag change practice is not in her near future.  So, she has no business relying on a semi-auto when far simpler to operate options are available.  I think those of us who have the experience using these firearms under duress, have a responsibility to our love ones that are beginners, to advise them in the pros/cons of their choices and help steer them to a platform they will be the safest using according to their commitment to training with that platform.  In my wife's case, she was looking for a "get off me gun", to back up her long gun in the house, and potentially carry one day as needed when she has committed the time to train for CCW.  We ended up getting her a SW J-frame, .357Mag, 3.5" bbl, DAO.  No, she will not be shooting 357s, those I will carry in it when I barrow this one for fly fishing trips in the mountains.  She shoots .38 sp. 
As pointed out already, all she has to do is point and squeeze the trigger.  In her intended use, this one is for very close quarters, like someone standing at the bed, not across the living room.  The weight of the 357 version J-frame is heavier than those little lightweight 38sp J frames, so it's easier for her to shoot.  One word of caution though regarding DAO for small people.  Sometimes, the trigger pull is too heavy for those without strong grips.  While my wife is able to shoot this pistol fine, our 30 year old daughter struggles to squeeze the double action trigger.
If your beginner is set on a semi-auto, they should be advised going into it, that they ought to practice vigorously with properly managing malfunctions, at least as much as punching holes in targets.  

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Goatlocker
Give me a fast boat for I intend to go in harm's way.


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 09 February 2018 at 07:27
Have you givin this any thought?

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/" rel="nofollow - http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/

Simple upgrade for a 1911, supported barrel and a heavier spring.

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 09 February 2018 at 09:26
That doesn't sound bad at all! Thumbs Up

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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 09 February 2018 at 14:33
If you are into rolling your own, I'm sure the same could be done with the .50GI

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 09 February 2018 at 21:20
......think long slide, skeletonized/slotted. SS 6" BB comped and ported to gain the extra 100fps and tame the weight and recoil to below .45 ACP. Kydex G-2's, extended magwell, high vis tritium adjustable sights with a halo dot and iron cowitness....two-tone...nothing too extreme, but that's just if it were me!

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: Tikkabuck
Date Posted: 10 February 2018 at 10:35
  Tas  you know Debb used to shoot a great deal with me and the boy's . She has shot 1911's (she has no choice with us  LOL )  Sig. P232 ,my carry gun . single actions, S&W different double actions , her Ruger P-85 , Styer 9mm ,and a host of others . I have let her friends shoot and get qualified  for their CCP with what we have in the safe .  One thing I notice about 75% of her friends and her ,is with semi's they have a hard time racking the slide ,and the smaller they are the harder they are  ,not to mention how many time they skin their thumb up.  Confused
  Believe it or not ,when left to what they feel the most comfortable with ,they always go to the double actions ,38's 357's and the .22's . And you would think the Smiths. But no Debb when she wants to shoots for fun with us ,will always go to her Taurus Ultra Lite in .38 .
 
 Unless you really buying a new gun for yourself LOL ,check them out . If she don't like it ,she won't shoot it.
 


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God,Mother,Country,and Hot Rods. Done with political crap.LOL


Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 12 February 2018 at 10:53
Some great points, Mike - thanks!
 
I'll be checking with her and seeing if she still wants one, now that Spring is going to be here (hopefully) soon. During the winter, things kind of wither on the vine....Shocked


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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 20 February 2018 at 17:29
Pretty much already said/covered and lots of good info.
For house gun hard to beat a 4"Bbl revolver in .38Spl. Defense load. The +P can be tested later if wanted. Grips must be a good fit to shooter...rubber grips give secure grip :

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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 20 February 2018 at 18:56
Also remember in-house...light loads in light cartridges mean LESS noise upon firing.  A 44 mag in a house will stun the shooter.


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 20 February 2018 at 22:08
LOL, trying to remember where I heard that the sound of a pump shotgun being loaded was enough to make most perps have a slippery withdrawal from your premises. I'm certain that a twin barreled blunderbuss configuration with black powder charge would pretty much clear any hallway or room with debris, smoke and horrendous noise. Recoil would be modest and aim is relatively irrelevant.

For the record, a friend of my wifes house was invaded and her friends father met the perp at a stairwell. He politely asked who was entering his house at such an hour to which the perp replied it was his worst nightmare and he should tuck tale and hide if he wanted to survive. At which point the father laughed at him and cycled his 12 ga. while telling the perp he better fight better then the little nips he ran out of caves in nam!.....Incident ended without any further commentary from the perp. Might be something to that philosophy.

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 09:45
In a strange twist of events, The Beautiful Mrs. Tas has actually moved along from this idea; thanks to the events that are going on in the hallowed halls of our "wise" statesmen, an AR15 might actually be on the table, bump stock and all.

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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:14
Tas...IMHO...bumpstocks NO good for selfdefense..stay with fixed or adj. Stock.....best trigger would be Military grade vs light pull type....
AdrenalIne works against a "bump-in-the-night" awakening



NOISE!
MUZZLE FLASH!
TWO very bad things that happen when a gun is fired in a dark house/hallway etc.

Electronic muffs can solve that. They allow you to hear normal sounds but filter out gunshots.

Muzzle flashes tuffer to avoid.

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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:18
Well, where she is concerned, I think it is beyond home defense; it's more along the lines of "get one before they take them away."
 
She's become quite the Constitutionalist in the past 3 or 4 years, and it's refreshing to see!


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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:55
Well now we are talkin! I'ld sway her towards the POF AR-10. It is suppressor ready which drops the noise and flash down and is also a very capable hunting platform. For the defense load a nice frangible 110 grainer is available that pretty much explodes on impact into tiny shards. Best part is it's a piston gun and therefore able to put a folding stock on it for home use and it's easy enough to change out again to a more hunter friendly full stock in quite literally seconds. Sure it will cost you a couple bucks, but for a light weight 10 piston drive it's well worth the yote hides!

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:57
The AR-10 would definitely be my own first choice - I've been a fan of that 7.62 magic all of my life! Hug

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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 11:02
Well then!

https://pof-usa.com/" rel="nofollow - https://pof-usa.com/

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 11:08
I own the 10's and they are loud! Mine are Full target jobs and heavy. Recoil in the heavy guns is less then the .223, but in the lighter guns with the gas action recoil is more on par with a 10 pound .243, very gentle but you know it went off. Just about all of the current offerings of AR-10 platforms are sufficiently accurate with some type of ammo from the factory hovering about a MOA., but if you work your own tailored load up for it and experiment til you find it's pet, most will run with any bolt gun.

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...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 11:13
Expect to prices of ARs to go back up, two weeks ago, they were still on sale for ~$450, for base model, same one's now ~$600.

Don't bother with bump stock, but I'd get some of the "normal" capacity mags, before they go after them too. Magpul 60rd drum mags and surefire 60-100rd mags, will inflate in price, pretty quickly. They've already gone up by half, in last month.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 09:44
Gary (IBD) passed along this article, which is worth reading, I think:
 
http://news.armscor.com/ins-and-outs-of-shopping-for-a-1911-on-a-budget" rel="nofollow - http://news.armscor.com/ins-and-outs-of-shopping-for-a-1911-on-a-budget


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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

Helfen, Wehren, Heilen
Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 10:29
Interesting 1911 article.  I never liked them and sold the only one I owned in 1960.  Shot a lot of target with them, but I just couldn't get them to shoot for me...too much slide movement while bullet was still in barrel?  weak hands?

But that article seemed to say,  'buy one now, a low priced one, while you STILL can'.

maybe I do need one.


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 11:46
I am a 1911 fan.One can never go wrong by owning a Good 1911! They are a bit heavy to carry concealed the even the smaller ones. Not best for concealed carry in warm weather tho with t-shirt/shorts. 
Now I have heard but not checked out there is a 1911 made by STI that has a 20rd mag capacity with nearly same grip size as standard 1911. Actually saw one being carried by a sheriff's deputy...he was sold on it for his use. That would be a neat gun with 20 rd capacity but not a concealed carry candidate for most of us. 


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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter



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