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water bug

Printed From: The BaitShop
Category: Head for the Hills!
Forum Name: Transportation in the Outdoors
Forum Description: Trucks, ATVs, Boats, Snowmobiles....Getting there is half the fun!
URL: http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=25643
Printed Date: 21 November 2017 at 17:22
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: water bug
Posted By: d4570
Subject: water bug
Date Posted: 09 July 2017 at 10:46
Still working.
I went as far s I can on the boat port for a wail.
I did not go calling and the lawn did not need to be messed with.
Water bug time.
My buddy and I welded up some of the motor platform but did no get it welded to the boat.
I added some Pillars to disperse the weight , not welded in yet. I used a hole saw and cut the Sq tubing and drove it in , should hold better then just welded to the out side.



A VW motor mounts only to the transaxle so no actual motor mounts. I mane one . the motor will set on it and I'll bolt it on with the 2 studs on the front of the motor under the front pulley.





Then I plan on having a heave "L" bracket from the trany bell housing mount holes to the front of the motor mount.




The oil sump is in the very bottom of the case I had to cut a hole to change the oil.



Now I need more welding...
d


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box



Replies:
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 09 July 2017 at 11:37
Looking good. you have really come a long way,
congratulations.


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 09 July 2017 at 12:33
Long way to go

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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: Wing master
Date Posted: 09 July 2017 at 15:26
Looking good D.

Wing master

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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 09 July 2017 at 17:27
your persistence is paying off...looking good.

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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 21 August 2017 at 14:18
The VW motor is officially attached to the Hull !!!!
I have been fabricating a motor bracket and starter mount .
WOW lots of cutting and fitting But it looks just like I envisioned and
seams to work .
I have to be able to adjust the " attitude" of the motor 'drive.
I still have to make the "Adjuster" on the front.
It will consist of a one inch ,by three inch bolt and nut on a rubber pad
To move up and down and then a locking plate to hold it in place .
That's next.
THEN finally I can start the drive/hub/prop.





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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: Wing master
Date Posted: 21 August 2017 at 22:41
That's looking great D. 

I'm still not seeing how you are going to run the exhaust?

Wing master


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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 10 October 2017 at 20:37
At long last I have the primary clutch "ON" the motor.
I had to relocate the starter an 1/8 inch as to let the front half turn freely.
 Every thing is turning to the left and all the screw on parts are right hand thread. I have roll pins and nut locks an anything in the "Drive train". I'm going to do a power up soon to see if the VW 1600cc will make the clutch engage.
 
 
 


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 10 October 2017 at 23:06
Boy, if a tiny 2 cycle snowmobile engine (what CC size was on the sled motor clutch came off of?) will make the clutch function that VW motor surely should too. I forgot is it direct drive to prop or do you have a gear box between?????

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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 11 October 2017 at 08:23
Think the clutch is centrifugal, so the speed will be the issue.

looking good.

duck season is upon us....go for it D


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 11 October 2017 at 11:35
Originally posted by Irish Bird Dog Irish Bird Dog wrote:

Boy, if a tiny 2 cycle snowmobile engine (what CC size was on the sled motor clutch came off of?) will make the clutch function that VW motor surely should too. I forgot is it direct drive to prop or do you have a gear box between?????
 
 
The clutch runs off RPM.
 A new SB has to run up to over 4000 rpm before it starts to lock up.
No gears but the drive starts out at 3 to 1 and as the rpm goes up the reduction goes down finally to .70 to 1. It'll have a chain at 1 to 1 from the secondary to the prop.
 


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: Wing master
Date Posted: 11 October 2017 at 11:40
Looking good D. 

Back in my Mechanic days, I worked for a fracing company. They had Nitrogen trucks with a drop box PTO. The output on the drop box turned clockwise looking at it from the back. We had a heck of a time keeping the output shaft nut tight. I would put a little BLUE locktite on the lock nut as well. (I never liked using red locktite)

We ended up having a nut machined that was split and had an allen screw that would "clamp" the nut to the shaft after it was tight. That worked, but was a real pain to tighten the allen screw. 

It looks like you will be on the water pretty soon. Way to go D. 

Wing master


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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 12 October 2017 at 12:54
Major test . A+
1971 VW bug 1600cc undetermined  mileage motor.
This set in a shed for maybe 30 years. I Got a new carb at amazon,
New coil, plugs wires points and condenser. I set the valves and point with a feeler gauge ,remember them ? I had it running on the ground for like 5 minutes for the first test of the clutch adaptor that I had made. It failed in moments. I redesigned and had it fabbed up again, This time with a carrier bearing and a shaft that went in to the piolet bearing in the crank. Have not ran since. I built the hull made the motor mounts and finally mounted it on the boat.
Made a mount for the carrier bearing re did the starter to fit.
About a year later. Today I needed to start it up and see if my primary clutch off the 1969 Johnson snowmobile would even work.
Dang! I put the fuel line in to a gas can and hit the starter. A dozen turns and she came to life. I have not put a timing light on it yet but it ran very smooth from, 800 rpm (Idle) after the electric choke came all the way off , to 5000 rpm ( as fast as I wanted to turn it unloaded). As stated in the information I could find on the clutch It engaged at 1700rpm and at 3100 rpm was fully moved in for the reduction change. Everything sounded smooth and solid. I ran it for a half hour or so at 2500 rpm. I still have to do some work on my temp and oil psi apparently, but the oil on the dip stick was still cool to the touch.  NICE!
Next to mount the secondary clutch, and see if that part works as expected !!!
 
 


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 12 October 2017 at 13:22
going good D.  Congratulations so far.

Duckies are flying!


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 12 October 2017 at 13:26
Won't get the bug in this year but we ARE going Swan hunting ASSP...

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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:18
Houston there Could be a problem...
I just read that the type of clutch (Salisbury Clutch) off the old Johnson's where only rated to 40 hp.
The 1600cc vw is rated at 60 hp.
I'm thinking with the high altitude and loads of miles on the motor I'll probably be closer to 50 hp.
Hope it will work...


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:46
It is a centrifugal clutch,  Many of those don't disengage when speed is reduced...IF there is a heavy weight (mass inertia) load on them...they stay locked up.  You prop may make it lock in 'engaged' mode!  
Keep you finger on the 'kill switch' as you try to go to neutral.   A short stop is much better than an unwanted travel up into a dock/parking lot.


Clutches are not usually rated/limited on a horsepower basis.  they are rated/limited on a torque basis.

If the snowmachine ran at a higher RPM for that 40 hp rating; then if the VW engine is running at a lower RPM than snowmachine engine....you will be limited to torques much lower than the torque available from that VW engine, even at  an aged 40 hp.

Also decelerating with the high inertia prop might get torques higher than the rated clutch torque, thereby skidding the clutch friction material.  (wearing it out quick).

Just thoughts from an old engineer!


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:55
Yo d4570...no mechanical ability or knowledge here but..wondering if there is a direct relationship to rpm's to clutch vs hp creating those rpm's????.....for example could you control the power output to the clutch via rpm's?...so as to not over max the clutch?

Like...Find out what were the max rpm's on the old Johnson motors of 40hp that were required to allow the clutch to "open" to put full output to the belt (allow it to drop down to  bottom of "v" for full power) and what they said was the max rpm's to the clutch to achieve that result.Question


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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:59
Thanks.
There is nothing to slip in the clutch.
 it consists of a spring rapped around a shaft.
The spring pushes the sides of the pulley outward making the
belt ride higher on the sides  changing the gearing to the secondary.
Which opens wider from the "Shorter" belt and spring presser and that changes the rpm to the prop. There all on splined shafts they can't slip, the belt can but not the clutches. When its in "Neutral" it is just the belt two "LONG" to engage the sides of the pulleys .
So there Not actually a centrifugal force friction clutch.
There a variable "Step" belt drive like on a drill press only automatic, kinda. 
 
Look at the bottom part of the exploded view and see the clutch assembly
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/952197/Johnson-Skee-Horse-25-201r.html?page=77#manual" rel="nofollow - https://www.manualslib.com/manual/952197/Johnson-Skee-Horse-25-201r.html?page=77#manual
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/952197/Johnson-Skee-Horse-25-201r.html?page=81#manual" rel="nofollow - https://www.manualslib.com/manual/952197/Johnson-Skee-Horse-25-201r.html?page=81#manual
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/952197/Johnson-Skee-Horse-25-201r.html?page=79#manual" rel="nofollow - https://www.manualslib.com/manual/952197/Johnson-Skee-Horse-25-201r.html?page=79#manual
 


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 12:12
Originally posted by Irish Bird Dog Irish Bird Dog wrote:

wondering if there is a direct relationship to rpm's to clutch vs hp creating those rpm's????.....for example could you control the power output to the clutch via rpm's?...so as to not over max the clutch?
The VW gets its max HP at around 3000 rpm I could just limit the speed of the motor, BUT I NEED all the HP to spin the prop I have.


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 14:36
The primary sheave is centrifugally operated and engages the trans-mission belt when the engine speed reaches approximately 2700 rpm.When the engine is rotating at idle speed or below 2700 rpm, the trans-mission belt rides on a ball bearing between the halves of the primarysheave assembly (see Fig

As the engine speed increases, centrifugal effect forces a garterspring in the end cap outward against the contour of the end cap and axially against the movable sheave half. The profile of the end cap causes the engagement.  As the sheaves are broughttogether the transmission belt is forced outward to ride on a larger diameter of the primary sheave assembly, increasing belt speed (seeFigure 3-8). Since the belt length remains constant, the secondarysheave halves spread apart, allowing the belt to ride on a smaller diameter (low gear).  As the belt climbs between the cone pulley assembly the gear ratio decreases (high gear).


If the torque rating is increase above the rated torque,  the movable sheave will rotate at a speed slower than the outer primary sheave (input speed).  this will causes the garterspring to move at this slip rate, and wear against the wear  disk and/or the  end cap.

The assembly also includes a wear disk.  Which I assume is to compensate for undesred wear, but is very limited.  The wear would be preferred to be on the softer wear plate than the garterspring or the end cap.

If you know the HP of the VW and its top rpm, along with the HP of the snowmachine and it's top speed the max torque of each is easily calculated.
D,  you always have the most interesting  and thought provoking issues.  BEAR 







Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 14:50
If this helps your thinking.

60 hp @ 3000 rpm means max torque output of VW engine is   105 Ft lbs.

The Snowmachine   40 hp engine, if it was made to run at say 5000 rpm (just a guess for a 2 stroke)  would have a shaft max output torque of  42 ft pounds.

These are MAX calculations.   Only a test will tell.

Where is the extra chain drive transmission you installed?  between the vw engine and the SM clutch?  between the SM clutch and the prop?

Remember the VW engine will only put out enough torque to match the prop load. 

 Propeller loads increase with the square of the speed.  So if you double the speed of the prop...you need 4 times the torque.


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 18:21
The chain is after the clutches. To the prop. I can change it easily if needed
Right now it is 1 to 1.
The clutch starts at 3 to 1 and finishes at .70 to 1, a little over drive...
The prop is made to run at 3100 rpm and with max pitch takes 55 hp to turn it at that speed according to the prop people.
THATS the reason for the torque converter. 
Normally a 1600cc can't get it turning that fast because there max hp is at 3000 rpm, that is with out a reduction , but then you need to run your motor at 4000rpm + to get to the max on the prop..
 It's like chasing your tail.


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 14 October 2017 at 08:51
The prop required torque to reach 3100 rpm would, if my slide rule is still working, be    93.5 foot pounds of torque.  
   
Sounds to me you are very close, on the torque ratings.  your CV, Continuous Variable transmission, is centrifugally controlled, sort of an automatic.  And I suspect the bell housing curve is profiled for the snowmachine thread load and a 2 stroke.  So you might not get to top speed the fastest, BUT it should take you there.

Still looking like a sound project D.

We are anxious for the test results on run up.


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 15:27
In between deer hunts...
 
 
 


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 16:31
d I see an "adjustment" tool of some kind lying in the bottom picture near the bottom....just what do you adjust with it?????????Confused

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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 16:33
If that won't push the boat, hook a generator up and power your block.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 18:09
Originally posted by Irish Bird Dog Irish Bird Dog wrote:

d I see an "adjustment" tool of some kind lying in the bottom picture near the bottom....just what do you adjust with it?????????Confused
 
Anything I NEED to!!!!!
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 18:12
Originally posted by RobertMT RobertMT wrote:

If that won't push the boat, hook a generator up and power your block.
 
I hope the tired 60 horses in the bug motor can turn it .


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 13 November 2017 at 07:46
three blade.  that will keep the ground clearance decent.

support looks rugged.  I'd double bolt and pin/all nuts...vibration!




Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 14:22
I did a no load, no prop today.
All looked good. The clutch started to move at around 1800rpm.
I did not have my laser tack on the hub but it looked slower then the drive.
It starts out at 3x1.
As I increased the motor RPM the clutches both moved, as expected, the clutches
Topped out at 3000 RPM, right where I was hoping.
I should be like .70x1 there ,I would guess around the top end for the prop, 3100RPM.
I didn't run it long but It was quiet and smooth and looked to be running true.Clap


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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 15:53
great.  keep us involved in the project.



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