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Let’s Talk 12GA From Hell

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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2006 at 04:38
Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed
Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2006 at 17:35
Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case so it does 3 & 3.5" also. A nice
 long barrel we'd have 2050 plus.Ed
Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2007 at 13:57

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.


Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2007 at 08:09

Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed


 

 

Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2007 at 17:44

I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed


Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2007 at 16:20

Here is pic of the first finished model
breech block for scaleup model. You
hammer and trigger in the back of
the block. Ed

 

Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 February 2007 at 14:00

Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should
average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:37

Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2007 at 08:52

Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the top rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed


Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 March 2007 at 14:59

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.

Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2007 at 11:55
Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed
Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2007 at 13:05
Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition like the 4759.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2007 at 17:44
Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
 Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2007 at 05:47
Tested 730g with 7383. Perfect ignition.Extracts easy.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps in 3" plastic.
Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed
Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2007 at 06:46
Tested 870gr hard slug with 7383 in 3"
plastic. Over 1500 fps in NEF short barrel.
I wish it had a longer 32" barrel..........
The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 June 2007 at 15:13
Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases, w/600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759.

Powders slower than shotgun type, that ignite
properly with small primers(shotgun-lg rifle);
we found 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that also works
with real heavy slugs Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2007 at 18:42
Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2007 at 16:23

ED, At 125 grains per load I bet that $3.00 stuff looks pretty good. RD

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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2007 at 02:50

RD-Yes it's good deal and case is full so

don't have to worry about overloads.

Even with the heavier slugs.

You could load with lee dip cups.Ed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 16:49

Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

Ed Hubel
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