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Let’s Talk 12GA From Hell

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Kingpin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2006 at 14:15
Got one on the bench as we speak, however, I think it needs a double shotgun to do it justice......................Kingpin

Edited by Kingpin
There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2006 at 15:21

Kingpin-They are a neat case. Your right about

being great for a double Paradox gun.

Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with
320gr WC-855H special ball.730 gr slug.
Same slug,
300gr of RL-25 got 2400. 300 gr of RL-22
got 2800. 280 gr of W-760 ball got 2900.
Will hold more 760, but pressures around 40k on last
two loads mentioned.Savage extracts easy,
bellers like a tank gun.Ed

Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2006 at 15:53
We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact
me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to
make dies and start.Got commitment for 400
already.Let me know if interested.We are getting
a 1887 12ga lever gun to test our cases in.Ed.
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2006 at 14:17

Got a 1050 gr Bridger slug over 2200 in the Savage. These were a 750 gr that Bridger made for me with hollow base so I could add weight, got wt to 1050 gr.

We get questions about recoil.
My Savage is a pussycat being heavy
relative to the loads..

.Now Rob's Borchardt loads gets exciting...
Rob shot a few 1000 grain Bridgers at 3250 fps
and he said he couldn't go any higher as recoil
was "severe". His Borchardt is 24 lbs, and can take
any pressure you could load for it and still
hang on. Cartridges of this size really gets
the juices flowing at over 23,000 ft lbs..Ed

Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2006 at 23:43

We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed


Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2006 at 19:02
I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and RE-7 and they look good.
Have got loads  with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that similiar loads will work
in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed


Edited by hubel458
Ed Hubel
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Rockydog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 07:43
Ed, This stuff is really neat. Please keep on posting it and excuse the lack of replies as I, for one, have no experience to relate to with something like this. Have you ever had a pressure meter/strain guage hooked up to these to see what the pressure curve looks like? Just wondered how it compares to 3.5" 12 guage. RD
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Apollyon67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 15:06
Ed. this is great stuff and very interesting, thanks for sharing your info with us.
ps. I love the Winchester lever action shotgun.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2006 at 21:03
Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2006 at 13:57
Ed, Ever consider the Benelli Nova Pump gun for one of these? It's got 3 rotating locking lugs similar to a rifle. I wonder if the plastic frame could take it. RD
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2006 at 20:06

Rockydog- A guy named Lefteris in Greece is rigging up

a Nova to use a 3" version of our case or a turned brass

3 inch case.I looked at the prints of the action, he sent me

and it should work with heavy alloy barrel.. Lookinga at]

pictures of the Saiga 12ga with turned bolt style locking

lugs. They may work with heavy barrel.Ed.

Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2006 at 17:47
Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder,
like we had to do with RE-7 and RE-15
for good reliable ignition.We did 4759 in
plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp without a to high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2006 at 11:19

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2006 at 16:35

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed



Edited by hubel458
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2006 at 11:01
I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2006 at 18:54
Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2006 at 16:31
Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2006 at 17:44
Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear
extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2006 at 04:26
I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2006 at 04:19

We are working to make a big falling block action for our

case by scaling up a nice looking action.

Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

 


Ed Hubel
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