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Let’s Talk 12GA From Hell

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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2016 at 13:09
A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming
a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are
catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the
rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges
also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also
come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on
top.



Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the
MPI stock..



Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF




On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has
a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the
mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively
sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on
the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand,
using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble
it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good
for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few
seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed



Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2016 at 14:41
Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun cases,
holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting
with.
These with light brass slugs supposed to do over 2000
fps.




Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC,
CAN.
Known as Rocky Mtn Rifle. Video is on Youtube of
testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy.
They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A

Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for
a guy,
the second one they built. First one killed the buff
pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for
585HE..



Picture of Rossi singleshot with 585 barrel mono-blocked
into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, for testing in a
light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols.
Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got lots of
cases. Ed


Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2016 at 10:43
Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.



The style of most break actions singles aren't the
greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we
mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One
that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.

Well the guys have found one that is super strong
lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga
light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little
brother of the 585HE.

Told company if they did them NEFUltra style, rifled,
heavy 12ga slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them
fast enough.




Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and
Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is
in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did..
Ed



Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted
the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the
actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes..
Ed


Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2016 at 22:31
We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our
back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,




Here is folder shotgun, the guys set up as 24ga FH.
Shoots nice, looks nice, it a more expensive break
action,
compared to many others.




Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.




Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..




Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
with
variety of bullets..Can get energy like regular elephant
guns..Ed




Ed Hubel
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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2016 at 01:39
There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.




Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed


Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2016 at 17:00
Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from
helix driver

wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to
go in cup.

Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.






Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action
for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and
Accuratereloading,

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC
Canada, with a

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey
laminate. He imported

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet
River in Lloydminster AB.






That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got,
that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal
cartridge the neighbor made,

from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is
big one on the right.

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge
scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED



Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2016 at 03:02
Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with

Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell
cases done.

Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with
unbreakable rims.

Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email ---
--   

b.bertram1@bigpond.com    ......





Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal Cartridge and Mitchell
Fitzpatrick's win.......

.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype
solid 400gr Berger bullets.

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5
Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and
a Lethal Precision Arms

muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own
gunsmith shop, will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and
long range hunting..


Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits
at the 2477-yard target,

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes
shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid performed
great, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).






Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint
Stock. These are super strong.

The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys
doing them....... Ed









Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2016 at 12:34
Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan

Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.




Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect
lettering

for our case as it came from production line,.




I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for
singleshots.

We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we
adapted

a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better,
and

handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to
add weight,





Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the
wildcat

375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also.
Ed



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 18:29
Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with
his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good
job.


Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new
COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,




We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking
down our 585 HE.
The other couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our
own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the
other one...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues,
We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting
guys going. King of 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375
necked from our case,

Here's how we size and seat 375 HE, a simple die, a 1"
die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a
regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch
of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press.That way I
can clean pocket, check
flash hole,....... SO First with lock ring set, I size
cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the
case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of
the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.
About .35" down.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness
as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in
press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill
bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram,
case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we
carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder,
raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as
big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no
crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no
380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done.
About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will
do more.

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is
public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed


Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2017 at 00:35
Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada
got in

Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture








MAR 10




Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing
585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel
would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..









Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.




Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole
stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.




Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm
specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our bigger case .Ed




Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for
the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun,
starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders
needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer
prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain...
Ed



Edited by hubel458
Ed Hubel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2017 at 11:37
Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot
loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.




Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases,    
2 on left necked, 2 on right formed in hydro die after
necking..

]

Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are
experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR
case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the
picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG
action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target,
singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough
barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill be
under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.



Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..





Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted,
,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 08:50
Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for
28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures
than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass
cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..



Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to
original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still
have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the
wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.



Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE,
have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium
machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by
wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE
necking down 416 ..




Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles
using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal
Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE
)...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3
of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot
Challenge. Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2017 at 14:13
The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that   
case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr..
Ed..




More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets
not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures
are bad case
proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of
powders...........
and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as
shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one,
in longer freebore....Ed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2017 at 16:46
Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed



Here is picture of 375 HE left,  416 HE next,  416 HSM right..



Here, tentative specs,  416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,




A  375  HE,  with Lawton action, few are being done with those .....


Ed Hubel
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