The BaitShop Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > FireArms, et cetera > Rifles and Muzzleloaders
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Let’s Talk 12GA From Hell
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

This site is completely supported by donations; there are no corporate sponsors. We would be honoured if you would consider a small donation, to be used exclusively for forum expenses.



Thank you, from the BaitShop Boyz!

Let’s Talk 12GA From Hell

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1516171819 20>
Author
Message
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2012 at 09:57

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar

It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,

with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE

cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.

They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.

He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000

with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first

shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,

so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.

Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,

Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.

Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.

Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here

is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,

we just got done.

 

I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,

etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real

tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we

fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted

ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,

and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..

Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp

what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,

they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are

in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,

which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..

The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.

He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads

that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing

these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime

we get money built up for an order..Ed

 

 

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2012 at 14:47

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
20ga,  with 20ga Commander  wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2012 at 17:53

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

 

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

 

Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.

 

Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2013 at 20:38

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load

various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've

seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we

are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.

You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.

And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.

CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo

that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal

muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the

volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.

And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.

. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not

needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.

It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.

Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.

There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is

54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum

jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety

of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough

to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in

CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.

Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.

Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong

singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,

and the Magtech 199 shown above.

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.

We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with

the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads

with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

 

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2013 at 16:29

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW

wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.

We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just

shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.

Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..

We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it

in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman

12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a

SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make

bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE

case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one

on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed

the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the

unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving

room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going

to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder

and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,

Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,

and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.

As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga

card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.

There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can

stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that

was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.

It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers

like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the

deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter

cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super

heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging

peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in

BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".

And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed

 

 

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2013 at 18:40

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to

be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller

45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.

This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into

them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500

they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same

combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on

right is factory SPW.

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this

12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of

Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.

That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug

in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly

short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.

Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.

 

 

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585

barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the

back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed

 

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up

24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use

reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load

say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card

and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about

airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you

can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real

speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2013 at 10:10

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up

and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead

roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on

bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with

screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube

with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4

ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.

Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie

slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going

about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,

and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as

the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2013 at 21:31

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch

of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr

Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is

perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all

stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower

powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.

Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded

only a little, and those cases are soft ones.

We have big bunch of the sabots here now.

 

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.

With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.

Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the

bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom

is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many

other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the

sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.

Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.

Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under

slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the

curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.

It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many

shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,

miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,

with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

 

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2013 at 18:47

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.

Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt

solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.

2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft

1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie

Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale

on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.

Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.

If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two

hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr

and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with

white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.

I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in

smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.

To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.

You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.

 

After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the

sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps

will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .

More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.

Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher

velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.

For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier

for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.

Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences

and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"

I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using

480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks

and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"

 

Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.

Or $20 for 50 postage included..

.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus

WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2013 at 08:30

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped  NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working.

And A little funnin humor for us big bore nuts..Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2013 at 09:18

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......

First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip

Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as

the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel

headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal

slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,

But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum

cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a

base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of

Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.

Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left

fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

For 440gr max of 55gr Steel

For 400gr max of 57gr Steel

For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.

For 510gr max of 49gr Steel

For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a

bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.

Many of you need to get in on the fun.

Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is

perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light

barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra

springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made

for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on

the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock

for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so

in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next

to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.

Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..

Whoppee.....Ed

 

 

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2013 at 20:56

The sabots aren't moving and I got to get funds out of
them asap, emergency bill coming... And seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling
them fast in next few weeks . So to get these moving
out fast and getting tested, and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just  the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that  2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So,  200 sabots $47 Shipping included, 
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So  guys see if you got time, please
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2013 at 20:35

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,

next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder

as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..

Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and

the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the

top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases

at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case

mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling

impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel

straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that

we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that

will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2013 at 10:32

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.

First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot

bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting

barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if

base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real

tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.

On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand

which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball

flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different

styles of Minies.

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize

12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use

for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about

where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.

They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

 

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2013 at 23:05

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..

20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,

but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our

sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing

145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like

having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the

puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.

Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,

to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.

TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2013 at 23:40

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.

Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US

and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet

of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585

with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy

of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.

Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list

and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier

1500------5

1600------5.7

1700------6.42

1800------7.2

1900------8

2000------9

2100------9.8

2200------10.75

2300------11.75

2400------12.8

2500------13.9

2600------15

2700------16.2

2800------17.4

2900------18.7

3000------20

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2013 at 19:22

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that

you can get molds for from Lyman,

Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,

the best size for the 12ga sabots.

 

A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,

650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure

Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left

straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all

the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2013 at 07:21

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in

the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel

and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.

It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.

Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and

the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.

Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using

IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him

go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of

EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,

and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in

sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using

Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if

problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and

wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of

sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface

of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The

4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed

with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of

way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into

the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the

good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems

across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just

the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for

wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun

building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon

a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

 

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2013 at 20:57

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with

black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is

an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks

impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt

he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like

the faster powder did for him.

..

Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over

the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.

The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp

180 degree crimp down on top of it.

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but

they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case

1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.

Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.

The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs

We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,

single shots and checking couple lever actions.

Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
hubel458 View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
.30/06 SpringField


Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 October 2013 at 17:53

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots

.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of

brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner

Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies

and sometimes you have to use different wads..

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with

12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between

seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down

evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case

I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps

I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.

The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it

in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into

couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,

straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big

run of cases made in a factory.

 

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi

in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.

Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.

The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length

with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as

they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

Ed Hubel
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1516171819 20>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.