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handgun bullet choices for deer

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dakotasin View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 March 2006 at 16:56

fellas, i want to put together a deer-capable load for my s&w 686 (357). realistic use is most likely to be problem critters like skunks, coons, and coyotes i catch out while driving circles on the tractor and that sort of thing. but, there is a chance i might attempt a deer w/ it in the fall on the farm (i know the deer there very well, and getting within 10 yards is easy, so no ethics arguments on 357 vs. deer, please).

anyway, i'm wondering what makes most sense... at 357 mag velocities, the 125 grain jhp generates more energy than the 158 (not a lot more, but more). so, i gotta wonder, is a 125 grain jhp built tough enough to handle deer, or is 158 or 180 grain bullets the only way to go to get respectable penetration?

any insights here??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2006 at 18:06

Dakotasin;

I've not hunted deer with the .357, so I'm not speaking from experience in that respect.  But, the 125 grain HP's, driven at around 1450 muzzle, are among the very best for one shot stops on humans according to Sanow & others. 

I don't regard deer, especially whitetails, to be built any tougher than a 200 lb human.  The thick winter clothing issue of plugging up the HP would seem to go out the window too.

But, I do believe that I'd try the Speer 146 gr HP semi-wadcutter first.  I know that that can be driven to approx 1400 muzzle  in at least one 6" 686 safely.  But, that's also a load you want to work up to.  Blue Dot, Speer DWM cases, CCI 500 primers.  Start around 10.7 grains & don't exceed 13 grains.  Speer 13's .357 test gun was a Smith model 19.  The older books that used a Ruger Security Six were loaded quite a bit stiffer.  The 686 should be able to use those loads with no problem.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2006 at 19:37
I see Cast Performance has got themselves a 200 gr. WLNGC for the .357  .  I've gone the heavy-for-caliber cast route in all my big game handgun cartridges.  Not that that's the only route to take, of course.  With the reputation of a quality cast, I don't think you'd experience any lack of penetration issues with the bullet.  Good luck with the selection.  >>  klallen 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 01:34

I'm in the middle of the road on the comments.  I've killed whitetail with a 6 inch revolver in 357.  At the time I was shooting the 125 Jhp.  It was a good heart lung shot, but the deer ran over 100 yards into thick shit, 3 + hours to find it.

If a person can shoot good and has the maturity to wait for the right shot 357 is fine for deer(CBs gray hair seems to indicate he AT LEAST that 'mature')Wink

I was disappointed at the performance of the 125 JHP.  Today I use a hard cast 158 semi wad cutter.  While I like the hard cast and the idea of a hevier bullet, the revolver gap just will not let that 686 get enough pressure to drive the 200 grained.  I have a 357 T/C and shoot heavier than 158 bullets from it; but it is a lot better pistol without a gap.

My vote 357=  158 HC semi WC.

BEAR

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 02:41

Originally posted by BEAR BEAR wrote:

While I like the hard cast and the idea of a hevier bullet, the revolver gap just will not let that 686 get enough pressure to drive the 200 grained.

Morning BEAR  >>  Interesting point.  I've never worked with the 686.  As such, I don't know anything about the cylinder gap of that particular revolver.  Have you worked with the 200's to see what can be achieved, velocity wise?  If you could sneek 1100 fps out of the gun, I can't imagine a deer of any size being able to stop that heavy a cast from through and through penetration.  Maybe even slower would give an acceptable result on deer sized frames.  Just curious what velocity results you'd seen  Take care.  >>  klallen



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dakotasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 02:47

well, i think i agree w/ bear regarding the 200 grain bullet out of the 357. i'm just not sure it would work all that well out of a revolver. maybe out of a carbine, or something it would work well, but... it was probably designed for a 357 max...

cb... 125 at 1450 is a hot load, 'cording to speer 13. nothing wrong w/ hot loads, and i surely am not a stranger to that side of the equation, but i generally find speer 13 to list data that is realistic to what i can get. i have a few hundred 125 jhp's, but they are slated to go into my j-frame 38 special for defensive loads. so i have some on hand and could test to see if i can reach that velocity...

so, ok... construction... speer data stops at ~1000 f/s for 158 grain cast bullets, while jacketed data runs on into the 1250 range. if i can find gas checked 158 cast bullets, is it not reasonable to expect 1300 f/s out of 158's? would that be the best solution - giving me energy to spare?

a cast 158 at 1250 f/s or more seems to be the best solution. if i have no gas check, is that possible?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waksupi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 13:23

Cast bullets are definitely the way to go. See which weight shoots best in your pistol. Go to the board on my tag line, and check the archives, or make an inquiry. It seems there are several there with experience in the .357 mag for deer. And you will get some loads, plus find the velocity limits. The loading manuals aren't up to snuff on cast bullets, and that is why they ask us. We are recommended by Lyman, and Precision Shooting magazine for cast bullet info.

 The hollow points limit penetration too much for hunting purposes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranch 13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 13:37
 Get a bucket of wheelweights from the COOP and a good 158 gr semiwadcutter mold, a can of 2400 powder, and some small pistol primers. Cast up a bunch and sallyforth to the killing fields.
The most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 14:18

Dakotasin;

You missed a major point.  Speer #13's .357 loads were developed in the Smith model 19, a K frame gun.  When Speer changed from the Ruger Security Six to the Smith, the max loads dropped like a lead balloon.  In other words, Speer #13 loads are for that gun.  Those loads are not representative of what the cartridge itself can do in guns that are built tougher, such as your 686 or a Ruger Blackhawk.

When checking either Speer or Hornady, you have to keep in mind what the development gun was.  Failure to do so can lead one down the wrong path.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 15:39

klallen,

With the 357 mag and hard cast 204 grain Lymans I get 1510 fps with 2400 powder.  And considerable thump.  My stalking deer load for thick mountaain laurel deer hunting  is the 158 cast semi-wadcutter moving at 1450 fps

With my 375win and 220 gr jacketed bullets I get 2025 fps using RE-7.  I've killed lots of boar and deer with a 270 jacketed bullet charging out at 1710 Fps.

Both are more than adequate for deer+

BEAR


 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 15:45

Second thoughts. 

I didn't give the load weights as they are way over what someone might load in a weaker revolver.  Shooting the 200 grains out of the 357 blackhawk at max, once caused the ejector rod housing to shear off from the abrupt recoil.  This is common on Ruger SA, especially with the 300 grain heavy cast in the super BH 44 gun.

It is important to remember that hunting with a handgun FIRST requires the shooter to be able to make heart shots at hunting ranges.  Recoil in the heavier loads is difficult for the average shooter/hunter to hold accurately under hunting conditions.

A light 158 cast bullet moving at 1000 fps in the heart is a killer; much better than a 200 grainer  5 inches over the back of bambi.

BEAR

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 16:03
Thanks, BEAR.  Nice information.  Didn't want to side-track DAKOTA's string but not having worked with the .357Mag, I really didn't know what was possible.  After seeing your data, if owned a revolver in the round, I'd definitely work things up around the 200 CP.  1500+ fps is smoking right along.  1300 fps would be just fine with me and penetrate like crazy on deer.  Thanks again for the data.  >>  klallen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waksupi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 16:22

You might want to find a copy of "Sixguns", by Elmer Kieth. I'll bet there is some good info there.

It seems people are pushing heavier and heavier bullets in pistols. I will leave this for consideration. Elmer Kieth was the grand daddy of pistol hot rodders. When looking at his information, pay close attention to the bullet weights he was using. He pretty much had them all the chamberings shook out, and if the heavier bullets were better in accuracy, killing power, and trajectory, you can darn sure bet he would have been using them. Listen to your old uncle Elmer, and learn.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dakotasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 10:45

waksupi - thanks for the insight and invite. i'll poke around your forum a bit and see what i see.

i'd always heard the biggest problem in getting minor caliber handguns to kill deer was penetration problems, as most ammo/bullets are meant for defensive purposes. what you are saying appears to be the same thing.

cb- i'm not really into handguns. i have a few (probably less than a dozen), but i don't know a lot about them, especially regarding strength. so... speer went from a ruger security six to a smith 19... how, exactly does that relate to a 686? are you saying the 686 is weaker than the ruger? an m19? yeah, you're gonna have to walk me thru it, because handguns just ain't my bag...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gunrunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 12:55

Dakota, I have 'Sixguns'.  

Let me start off with Elmer's view on hunting with a handgun.

"For big game shooting with a pistol we prefer 44 or 45 caliber guns, with flat point bullets loaded to as high velocity as the gun will safely handle."    "A large entrance hole is just as important as a large exit hole; both let blood out of an animal and cold air in."   "The 357 is good, but the heavier, larger 44 or 45 is much better...."

In the 357 he used his own design cast bullets.  Two were 160gs, one being a hollow point and the other a hollow base.   A third bullet was his 173gr solid, (basically a long SWC).   He made one mention of likeing the heavy solid for deer.

For powder he prefered 2400. 

160gr - 15gs Maximum charge

173gr - 14.5gs Maximum charge

Keith states that the first factory cartridges used a modification of his 160gr bullet, (changing the design slightly and making it 158gr), over a charge of 15.3gs of 2400, at a velocity of 1,510fps from a 8 & 3/8" barrel. 

In my own experience I've used 158gr SWC's a lot in my Model 27.  (Commercial hard cast bullets, not a Keith design.)  With 2400, my best results came at 13.5 to 14gs.  14.5gs was starting to get too hot.  I've stayed with 13.5 for range shooting.  Never shot at game with that gun, but I'd feel confident with it.  I don't have any notes on velocity so I must've never chrono'd them.  I shot some of this load just last week and they got to 100 yards pretty fast and with good accuracy.  Very comfortable to shoot as well.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  Your 686 is a lot stronger than a 19 or 66.  (A 19 is blued and a 66 is stainless)  The 686 is beefed up some and also has the barrel underlug.   The 19 and 66 are fantastic guns but if fired a lot with full power loads can start to develop problems. 

Good luck with your development in this project....

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 14:39

Dakota;

The K frame Smith .357's were supposed to have been developed for law enforcement personnel.  Those who carried a lot & shot a little.  Mr. Jordan is usually named as the lead bull in the charge to get the .357 downsized from the N to the K frame.  When that happened brute strength was sacrificed.

Complaints of the K frame problems from steady diets of combat load .357's, and the Ruger GP100, led to the introduction of the Smith L frame guns.  These are the 586, blue, and 686, stainless versions.  The L frame takes the same grips as the K frame, but is beefier in almost every other dimension.

The Ruger Blackhawk is still considered to be the stoutest of all the current production .357's, but the Smith N & L frame guns aren't all that far behind.  You'll notice that Speer will give loads limited to the Blackhawk & Contender only, pay attention to that warning.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dakotasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 15:29

cb- thanks for the info. i'll keep the strength differences in mind.

waksupi- i spent some time on your site, and i can't decipher anything. differences in lingo. i'm used to describing bullets by caliber, style, and weight (308 hpbt 168)... most of the folks over there describe pills w/ a number string and some sort of a hardness measure, and leave no info on weight, style (sometimes), or even caliber designation (70009156/18brn). i'm too much of a simpleton to try to figure all that out, and then try to make it work in my application, and then hope to find commercially available bullets that match that number string - especially since that number string doesn't even say what caliber it might be).

anyway, my major concern now is the bullets... i've always thought gas checks were the way to go for hot loads, but i cannot find anybody making a gas checked bullet for 357's... so, do i not need it, or are these all meant for powder puff loads that won't work in my application?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranch 13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 16:36

 Gas checks are a waste of time as far as handgun cartridges go.

 Try and find flatbased bullets, which is sometimes hard to come up with, as most commercial casters use bevel bases, and those are prone to giving some bad problems with leading.

The most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 16:39

BearTooth Bullets :

  • 185 gr. FNGC
  • 200 gr. FNGC
  • 210 gr. LFNGC

Cast Performance Bullets :

  • 180 gr. WFNGC
  • 187 gr. WFNGC
  • 200 gr. WLNGC

After reading through this string, I almost wish I had a .357 of my own to try out those CP 200 gr. WLNGC's.  If BEAR's account is accurate and 1500+ fps is attainable, that'd be a honey of a load, in my opinion.

Good luck with your bullet search.  >>  klallen



Edited by klallen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2006 at 02:33

Klallen,

Remember my loads are not in an auto, nor wheeel gun.  Closed breech without a cylinder gap.  It does make a difference.

BEAR

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