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Topic ClosedSELF DEFENSE ISSUES

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: SELF DEFENSE ISSUES
    Posted: 29 July 2003 at 08:16

SELF DEFENSE ISSUES

 

Commenting on self defense issues is difficult because, and this is just one example:  Two bullets, from two cartridges, from the same box, fired from as close to identical guns as we can find, hitting two people, from the same range, of comparable size, health and attitude, do not always yield the same result.

 

There are so few absolutes that we must, of necessity, use a great many qualifying words to try to explain what happens when a bullet hits a human being. 

 

Bottom line.  None of us knows it all.  There are exceptions, on record, for almost everything when it come to what happens when a bullet hits a person.  All we can do is try to share what we know, based on our personal experiences, and let it go at that.

 

Personally, I believe in bullet placement, in fact, at one time, I all but preached it, but I have also come to understand that a great many, maybe, even, most folks, including trained professionals, when involved in a real life shooting incident, tend to:

1) Experience an increased heart rate.

2) Experience an increase in their normal breathing pattern.

3) Begin to sweat, especially their hands and around their eyes, sometimes to such an extent that it interferes with their vision.

4) Shoot faster, or slower, and, either way, less accurately than they typically do in training or practice scenarios at the range.

5) Shoot at what, to them, looks biggest, usually the torso of their attacker.

There are exceptions.  But few humans are calm, cool, collected and comfortable when it comes to shooting other humans.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still believe in bullet placement.  But, we also have to deal with reality.  Some calibers, cartridges and bullets, if you research shooting incident records, where humans have been killed, do yield better results than others. 

 

Evan Marshall, for example, writes about one shot stops and puts a percentage on them based on real life one shot to the torso shooting incidents that are supported by law enforcement after action shooting incident reports and medical reports, including autopsy results.  He reports his findings by caliber, cartridge and bullet.  His critics, and there are many, led by Dr Fackler, both are available on the internet, question his:

1) Definition of what constitutes a one shot stop.

2) Data gathering.

3 Math.

Etc and etc.  Best you read this stuff on the internet for yourself so you can make up your own mind. 

 

I often cite Marshall because he is the only one out there, that I know of, along with Fackler, who is giving us this type of information.  And, my thinking, right or wrong, is that some data is better than no data since it at least gives us something to go on. 

 

What human related shooting statistics really tells us, mostly, is that humans, more often than not, miss when they try to shoot other humans.  One shot one kill is not a reality for most human shooters.

 

Relatively few who were in military service wore the combat infantry man's badge, if they still have such a thing, and all of those who do wear one have not shot and killed another human being.  Same with law enforcement.  Some never, of necessity, draw their gun.  Relatively few, of necessity, shoot their guns, except in training and practice sessions.  Fewer yet have shot and killed another human being as a part of their job.  Our society has produced a whole lot more folks who have never even fired a gun than those who have actually shot and killed someone with a gun.  Especially up close.  So, self defense is something that does not come naturally to all of us and good information is at a premium. 

 

Opinions which are not based on actual experience abound.  I once asked a man who wrote extensively about self defense if he had:

1) Ever been physically, no weapons involved, attacked.

2) Ever physically hurt, no weapons involved, another human being.

3) Ever been shot at.

4) Ever returned fire.

5) Ever been shot.

6) Ever shot anyone.

7) Ever been attacked with a knife or other hand held weapon.

8) Ever been stabbed or hurt with a hand held weapon.

9) Ever used, not showed, but used, a hand held weapon of any kind to hurt another human being.

His answers to all 9 of my questions was no.  Instant, to me, loss of credibility. 

 

I prefer, personally, when it comes to self defense, since I can answer yes to all but one of those same 9 questions, to learn from those who have been to see the elephant.  And, more importantly, survived the journey through something more than just dumb luck.

 

So, all we can do, again, is share what we know and hope that it helps those with less experience make, at least, somewhat informed decisions when it comes to planning for their self defense needs.  I realize that not everyone lives in a place or has the resources to do their own testing when it comes to bullets, cartridges and guns.  Those of us that do, I think, then have an obligation not to write propaganda or pitch any one combination so much as to write what we know while understanding that what works for us might not work for all. 

 

Quick example:  If you, personally, love a 44 magnum double action revolver with target grips please don't expect that all of us are going to be able to shoot it as well as you can.  Why?  Different ages and different body types mean different hand size, hand strength, tolerance for recoil, eyesight, etc and etc. 

 

Our goal here, I think, as writers, who, I hope, know what we are writing about, should be to inform more than influence.

 

There is no one magic gun, caliber or bullet.  Nor need there be.  We are blessed with a variety of choices.  So, let's leave it at this:  Your life.  Your choice.  Period.

 

CJ

 

PS - If you liked this post, you might also enjoy reading SELF DEFENSE AND SHOTGUNS over in the Shotguns section of this web site.

 

 



Edited by cjishere2
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2003 at 09:54

CJ--

I can answer "YES" to all nine questions, and your text is one of the most balanced presentations on this issue I have ever read. 

Don't forget Gen. Julian Hatcher when recounting those who have attempted to quantify this research venue. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2003 at 10:41
excellent post, cj -
TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2003 at 12:34
CJ is totally on the ball here. I too prefer experience to a "reporter." I get lots of queries as to what would be the best home defense weapon, gun wise. I always ask, how much experience do you have? The vast majority always say that they are the equivalent of "Master Pistoleros." I ask them to show me what they can do and take them to the range. About 90% of them can't hit the ground with their hat. Strangely, most women shoot well because they do it from instinct. I don't know how long it lasts though. For myself, I keep a Remington 870 stoked with #9 birdshot. That's right, birdshot. In this sue crazy world, I don't want to take a chance of even one 00 pellet getting through the skin of my house. Besides, the ranges in a house that we're talking aboutare seldom more than 15 to 20 feet, depending on how big your house is. At these ranges, even a cylinder bore shotgun will tear one ragged hole and there is little chance of shot going through a wall and striking a significant other. I also don't want to have to pay for a piece of aluminum siding on a neighbors house or his dogs medical bills, or anything else for that matter. Besides all that, a pistol in a low light situation is best left to someone who knows how to use one. It boggles my mind that some people think that all you have to do is present a handgun and the threat will vanish. Most likely, a crook would turn the average persons handgun into a suppository. That all being said, some here can testify that laws are very strict when killing crimnals. In california, you could go to jail for defending yourself, but possibly in Wyoming, they would pay for you to open a self defense shooting school. Reallistically, you are supposed to barricade yourself in a room with a phone, call 911 (if you can remember the number under stress) and wait for the police to get out of the donut shop and hope they get there in time. RUH ROH, bet I pissed a few off in here, but then again, this it a SELF defense topic. Should I feel that my home is being broken into in the middle of the night, I assure you all that I will go hunting. Having been shot at a time or two, I can assure you that I don't like it, but then again, it may again happen again and I don't mind it so much that I will freeze and catch the next bullet fired. All of this is about reaction. Some are good with a phone and cowering, some are not.

If someone is adamant about buying a handgun after they have shown that they just can't shoot, I always recommend a revolver. Shooting one is pretty straight forward, and they are very easy for a novice to learn to handle, more so than a semi, which for most, takes quite a while to master. All the same though, this self defence topic is fascinating. I am sure that there are Kung Fu guys who don't advocate guns, tree huggers too, a lot of police too, at least that's what I've seen personally. Then borders are so different. If you shoot an invader in your house in Canada with a handgun that you aren't allowed to have in the first place, they will put you UNDER the jail. What do they use in Canada for that, a case of LaBatts? Then there is the anti gun croud that believes in giving any attacker whatever he wants. Maybe this is a good thing for "Best Movie Line," but I kind of feel like Cahill US Marshal about it, "I'm willing to die trying to keep it, the question is, are you willing to die trying to take it?"...........Kingpin
There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2003 at 13:22

I do love the women.

One of the best things that ever happened to me was teaching, says he, a lady friend how to improve her shooting for she already knew, as she said so modestly:  "A little bit about how to shoot a gun." 

I can see it yet, we were on a trip to the "lower 48."  We were both then living in Alaska.  Bright warm spring day.  Targets set up along side a beautiful little river running through the mountains of west central Idaho where it was safe to shoot.  Mr. Know It All, the former university rifle and pistol team member who had won a state championship in center fire rifle metallic silhouette shooting was about to share his wisdom.

Well, after all was said and done, when she finally started pulling the trigger: She out shot me with every gun that I brought out. Long and short.

Humble pie don't really taste all that bad.

CJ

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2003 at 04:18

Kingpin/CJ et al--

Same experience here--women are a lot easier to train to shoot for some reason.  Maybe it's better developed hand/eye coordination, dunno. 

My "house gun" is a Rem 870 with 20" rifle sighted barrel, mag tube extender and loaded with dove loads--#8's.  You are EXACTLY ON POINT with your comments, Kingpin--although most of cops that work with me are at Starbuck's, NOT a donut shop.  :-)  Yuppies in uniform......sheesh!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2003 at 06:00

As to women and shooting, how about this:

1) They actually pay attention to instruction.

2) They bring no preconceived notions to the task.

Me, I'm just guessing.  Women, how I love 'em, are a mystery to me.

About all I know for sure is that:  A woman can make my life better or worse and the choice is always, at least according to those who I have known, all mine.

CJ

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2003 at 07:15

As to my self defense shotgun and load preference:

1) I've owned several Remington 870's in a variety of stock configurations, barrel lengths and choke systems.  I liked all of them.  The reason I've, over the years, sold or traded them all away:  Every one of them rattled as I moved with it and I like to move quiet. 

2) At present, I own two side by side shotguns and one over and under shotgun.  I don't choose to use any of them as my primary self defense shotgun for one very simple reason, I may need more than two shots to do what needs doing.

3) Today, in my bedroom, I have a 12 gauge Remington 1100 with a straight grip, 21 inch barrel and a choke tube system.  For self defense, I use the IC choke tube and number 4 shot.  I use number 4 for two reasons:  First, I've been shot with number 6 shot and, because of the range and clothing that I was wearing, was not seriously hurt.  Second, I have shot, hit and not killed small game with smaller size bird shot loads.  Again, range and, this time, species, was, probably, the deciding factor.  So, right or wrong, we all have our own experiences and personal bias to draw from, I've opted for number 4 shot.  At close range, as in my little apartment, roughly 1000 square feet, I have no doubts whatsoever that number 8 or 9 shot would be fine for self defense.  However, I don't currently own any shotgun shells with shot smaller than size 7 1/2, which I most often use to shoot quail.  I'm just more comfortable with number 4 shot.  Hard to explain.  I guess, now that I think about it, I've never shot at anything with number 4 shot that I didn't hit and kill right now.  So, that's my choice.  Plus, the way my apartment is situated, on the second floor of a four plex, there is very little danger, I share no single thickness walls with my nearest neighbor, of my hitting and injuring an innocent bystander with number 4 shotgun pellets.  Anything is possible, but I'm comfortable with my choices.

3) Today, in my vehicle, I have another 12 gauge Remington 1100.  This one has a pistol grip, 20 inch barrel and no choke whatsoever.  I can't keep it, legally, loaded where I live but, right next to it, and ready to be loaded, I keep a supply of the aforementioned number 4 shot, some double 00 buck shot and slugs.  This way, I can load in accordance with my situational needs.

I probably carry, in my vehicle as well as on my person, and keep in my apartment, way more ammunition than I'll ever need but, as someone once wrote:  There is no such thing as having too much ammunition if you find yourself in a gun fight.  Me, I never ever want to pull the trigger and hear:  CLICK!

Personally, quick now, knock on wood, as of today, I've never had a failure to fire with either of my Remington 1100's.  I don't know that I can shoot my 1100's any faster or any more accurately than I could fire my 870's but I do know that neither of my 1100's rattles when I move with them and that's why I made the change. 

Again, personal preference all the way for my self defense shotguns and loads.

Your life = your choice.  My life = my choice.

Additionally, I back up both shotguns with at least one handgun.  In the drawer, next to my bed, today, I have a Kahr K40, with 3 1/2 inch barrel, in 40 S&W caliber loaded with 155 grain Federal Hydra Shok JHP and a Ruger SP 101, with 3 inch barrel, in 357 magnum caliber loaded with 125 grain Remington JHP.  The 40 S&W has, according to the Marshall data, a OSS rating of 93 percent and the 357 magnum is rated at 96 percent.  When I leave my apartment, I'm, always, carrying at least one handgun.  Usually two.  What I carry depends on where I'm going, how I'm dressed and the weather.  Over the years I've owned 64 handguns.  Today, I own 17.  So, I not only have lots of handgun carry choices, both primary carry and back up carry, but I'm also prepared to make an informed choice based on my situational needs.

Bottom line:  Defend yourself with what you, personally, are most comfortable using.

CJ

 

 

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