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Topic Closed.300 Win. Mag. Failure?

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Adobe Walls View Drop Down
.30/06 SpringField
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: .300 Win. Mag. Failure?
    Posted: 25 December 2003 at 04:44

Well, not really. One deer was recovered stone dead about 50 yards from where hit. But another was lost due to darkness and losing the blood trail. There were other deer taken but no real details. No shots exceeded 200 yards. Ammunition was 150 grain Remington CoreLokt.

The above anecdotal stories of this year's hunt were related to me by another hunter. I suppose that once again the mystique of the magnum is questionable. If .30 caliber magnums fail to poleaxe deer just as often as a .270 or .30/06, then it would be reasonable to say that for the purpose of deer hunting they offer little if any advantage to the user unless extreme long range opportunities are common. I just can't help but think that the superiority of high velocity as it relates to "killing power", "shock effect", and "energy dump" is more theoretical than scientific. At best it seems to be an elusive quality that sometimes is there and other times not. There appears to be no provable fact; only theory.

All this leads me back to MY theory that moderate cartridges that are ballistically similar to the old .300 Savage or the early .30/06 loads actually have all the usable power that can be applied to deer sized game animals at normal ranges. Anything more than a .30/06 class cartridge is generally a waste of money and powder. 

Big bores such as the .45/70 and muzzleloaders loaded similarly tend to kill just as quick and predictably at velocities half that of even the old .300 Savage; so any physics or theories that apply to one can't readily be applied to the other. And what of the killing efieciency and quickness of the modern broadhead?

This thread isn't really a magnum condemnation as much as it is a serious inquiry into why they should ever be considered "better" for taking game animals that rarely average 200 lbs over most of their range. And the range at which they are taken usually makes 200 yards a "long shot". I just can't understand "magnum" logic as it's applied to deer hunting. There is none as best I can tell.AW

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.416 Rigby
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** The RockChucker **

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 05:03

So your saying the .300 WinMag failed bacause it's to big?

A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 06:39

i just don't understand the concept of too much power...

the likely cause was an improper bullet placed into a poor location. i hunt w/ mags, almost exclusively. i have never lost a deer, and the only deer i've ever had run were the 2 i shot w/ a 25-06 (1 ran 3 or 4 yards, the other went about 100 yards).

as far as anything ballistically superior to the 30-06 (i know, that is tons and tons of cartridges) being a 'waste of money and powder', i strongly disagree.

also, the broadhead should not be classed in the same league as any sort of a rifle projection... broadheads kill primarily thru hemorrhage. bullets kill primarily thru shock (though the net result is the same - disruption of vital tissue, the way this destruction happens is different).

Hunting is not a matter of life or death; it is much more important than that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 08:02

I like magnums, but in truth they are not needed at all for deer.  I've seen lots of 300 Mags fail.  On things from deer to grizzly bear.  Why do they fial so often.  My opinion, a large percentage of people who own them can't shoot for shit.  they bought them because they needed to compensate for there poor skills.  In my opinion the 300 Winchester is a very good large rifle, and can kill anything on North America including the large bears.  but I think only one in 25 of the 'average hunters' can handle the gun.  they fear it and shot it like &^)&*^.

I got stuck in a snow storm for about 5 days in an eskimo fishing village.  Also stuck was a young guy 40 ish, who had just killed a grizzly bear with his 300 Weatherby magnum using 180 gr bullets.  He was discussed, as he shot it 11 times.  I saw the hide it looked like an 1100 with buckshot haf hit it.  he said next time he was getting a 416 Weatherby!

If you can't shoot, a big gun only makes you worse not better.  The magnum factor at work.  If a deer can't be killed at 50 yds with a 300 win, it is not the cartridge failure.  A 243, 300 savage, 30-30 and the 375 and the 416 do it every time.  what is the difference......the shooter.

BEAR

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 08:04

Hi Adobe walls,Better or worst? Subjective terms for a recreation where there are so many choices to use while hunting.

I agree that poor bullet placement was probably responsible for the missing deer. I won't argue that anything kills quicker or slower.I just like the plus of more energy at any range.There really is no such thing as overkill only dead.If you have rifles adequate for the ranges you hunt at, good.There really is no better or worst if it kills it dead.Most problems are hunter related poor placement,poor bullet selection etc).Magnums will not make up for a poor hunter,but in the hands of a good one they are very effective and with their flatter trajectory and energy they do offer the ability to make shots where you want at any range.

A win 300 mag with a 180 grainer has a 4 inch  point blank of 318 yards.

A 30-06 with a 180 grainer has a 4 inch point blank of 274 yards.

A 45-70 with a 300 grainer has a 4 inch point blank of 202 yards.

All will take the deer at your ranges.No arguement.But please explain why the mag has too much energy.Pick the bullet for the game and range and you will get the results.I guess it all gets back to what the hunter is comfortable with.Macca

don't let the bastards grind you down.

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AKA The Thunder From DownUnder

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 08:07
Hi Bear that  is the truth.The human element is the weak link in the chain alright.Macca.
don't let the bastards grind you down.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 11:05

It's very true that if you don't shoot well, that's the problem that takes precedence over everything else. But I still contend that even when applied with the same degree of accuracy on deer size game, the .30 magnums kill no quicker or reliably than the mundane .30/06 and even lesser cartridges. I think it's the ages old question; how much is enough? Impossible to say exactly due to field variables and differences in the animal as well. But I do believe that when the threshold of enough is attained, more simply doesn't equal improved results. Considering the density and skeletal structure of the size and weight of deer, there simply isn't anything there for the "extra" power of the magnum to actually do. It's like hauling a sack of groceries in a ton pickup as opposed to an S-10.  No, magnums don't really fail. They just fail to deliver improved results on the size of game they are most commonly applied to. AW

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 13:10
Well, this debate, as many others like it, will most surely produce more heat than light. However, as a shooter of many different chamberings, I will interject a short comment. The magnums are really not needed on deer sized game inside of 250 yards. However, if you hunt them [especially if they are our big Northern Muleys] in more open country where shots get a little on the long side, then the magnum comes to the fore, with flatter trajectory and more energy out at the distance. I don't particularly like most 150 grain bullets in the various 30 Mags, since they are usually a bit fragile, and can blow up without decent penetration. This does not apply to premium bullets, of course. My policy in the big 30's is to use a minimum bullet weight of 165 grains. The trajectory difference between it and the 150 is small, indeed. My idea of the perfect long-range deer slayer is the 264 with 140gr, 7mm Mag with140/150 gr, and the 30 Mag with 165gr. This year I shot two muleys with my 300 Savage. Neither went 2 steps after being shot. In all fairness, the longest shot was about 85 yards. Regards, Eagleye.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 14:51

Have to go with Eagleye on this. I use 180 minimums in my .30 mags except for the WSM and there it is 165 or 180. The old Rem core-lokt is a great bullet. I was rewarded with my first elk at age 14 with a 180 core-lokt in a 30-'06 aat about 125 yds.

It was a young bull and he veered to his left and fell over. I'd simply work with a heavier weigh bullet in the .300 and you do just fine!

Orion



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 15:00
Originally posted by Orion Orion wrote:

Have to go with Eagleye on this. I use 180 minimums in my .30 mags except for the WSM and there it is 165 or 180. The old Rem core-lokt is a great bullet. I was rewarded with my first elk at age 14 with a 180 core-lokt in a 30-'06 aat about 125 yds.

It was a young bull and he veered to his left and fell over. I'd simply work with a heavier weigh bullet in the .300 and you do just fine!

Orion


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.416 Rigby
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2003 at 18:10
Not the cartridge fault, bullet is the problem, IMO. A fellow hunter shot a 110 pound doe at 100 yards last year where I hunt. The bullet was recovered in several pieces under the hide on the off side. Not one bit made it thru and thru. When skined out, others commented how much damage had been done, and the shooter allowed as how his .300 Winchester killed like lightening. Didn't bother to try and explain the dismal proformance of the bullet, as far as he was concerned, it was dynamite. I doubt he even knew what brand and type of ammunition he had, just ".300 Winchester MAGNUM".
Adobe, apparently your hunter had the same problem, just less luck.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2003 at 02:15

AW,

"They just fail to deliver improved results on the size of game they are most commonly applied to."  Perfectly correct.

Magnums don't get worse they just don't get any better if the game only requires a 150 gr bullet at 2500 fps.  Of course they usually kick and make a bigger 'bang', so MOST hunters can't shoot them as well.

In all this discussion, we must remember that most of the guys on this board are far above average shooters.  so while lots of us thing the 300 mag is fine for them, believe me it is too much gun for the average hunter.  At my range sight-in days I see lots of average hunters.  You can recognise them by the black and blue arms and 'scope scars' fro the 7mm and 30 magnums.

BEAR 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2003 at 04:58

I agree that most 150 grain bullets are a bit too light/fast/fragile for anything short of 200 yard shots in the .300 Win. Mag.. (at typical woods ranges, some of them are marginal in the .30/06) The hunter whose comments instigated this thread, did mention that there was a sizeable hole completely through the chest cavity of one of the deer he took. While it's likely that the bullet did expand violently, it still had enough integrity to exit on a deer. Whitetail around the lower midwest aren't that thick though. Choosing a decent bullet for the task at hand becomes even more critical the higher the velocity. Of course those of us here already knew that.

 This whole thread could have simply been based on velocity and bullet choices, except that isn't the context in which most people think. They think in terms of cartridges, rifles and how "powerful" one is in comparison to the other. The fine details of MV, MRT, MPBR, Drop, WD, SD, BC, TOF, and the like just doesn't enter into the thought process when they run into Wal-Mart and grab "a box of shells" and go hunting. It's probably unfair for those of us here that qualify as amature ballisticians of long standing to expect them to. I guess our job is to gently encourage or advise, and hope for the best.AW

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2003 at 09:00
The old adages of preaching to the choir and not arguing with an idiot as it only brings you down to his level seem to prevail here. Most on this site know better and to trying to explain to those that don't is a lesson in futility. Around Thanksgiving I was in PA , and fellows there were shooting 375 HH's at deer. It sure did kill them them they stated. In another area, one deer was hit 7 times with shotgun slugs, before it succombed. I guess them eastern deer are a lot tougher thanour 700-900 lb elk. A bad shot is a bad shot whether it's from a .243 or a 416 Rigby. A poorly chosen bullet for the appropriate cartridge ranks about the same.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2003 at 03:19

Saddlesore,

I ran across a seasoned but eccentric shooter/hunter that got a lot of entertainment value out of using his "africa rifle", a .375 H&H on antelope. The entertainment came from the facial expressions and comments from others when they found out what he used on the little 110 lb goats. He told them he was worried that a wounded one might charge him! Of course both he and I  knew that on such a low density target that he actually did less carcass damage than the others did with their more "reasonable" but faster and faster expanding .270's with 130's.AW

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