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TasunkaWitko
Administrator
aka The Gipper
Joined: 10 June 2003
Location: Chinook Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 14749
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Topic: gas check Posted: 18 June 2003 at 16:54 |
is it possible to install a gascheck on a cast boolit without a sizing die?
i pushed one onto the end of a boolit once, and pressed all around the primeter of the base, and never could get it off. it seemed stuck on there pretty good to me.
i don't have a sizing die (yet), and if these cast boolits perform well without sizing, i would like to know that i can put gas checks on by hand and not worry about them coming off in the barrel.
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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen
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Triggerguard
.416 Rigby
aka The San Antonio Terminator
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2212
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Posted: 19 June 2003 at 11:08 |
Depends on the bullet and gas check. Lyman checks are designed (supposedly) to come off the bullet in flight. Hornady checks are crimped on. I like the crimp on style better, but the Lymans work ok. It will not come off in the bore, but it should be a reasonably tight fit to the bullet shank...don't want it to come off in the cartridge case.
You might spring for one of the Lee push thru bullet sizers if they don't fit well. They are cheap and effective, and will crimp on the Hornady checks, and may make the Lymans fit better as well/
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"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke
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TasunkaWitko
Administrator
aka The Gipper
Joined: 10 June 2003
Location: Chinook Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 14749
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Posted: 22 June 2003 at 08:54 |
the gaschecks i have are hornady's picked up a thousand at a garage sale for 50 cents.
looks like i will be looking at getting a sizer! the question is, which one?
i've got a marlin 336 in .30-30 (manufactured in 1999) with (of course) the micro-groove barrel. which LEE sizer/gas check crimper is TYPICALLY for best for this make/model/chambering? the .308, .309 or .311?
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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen
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NH_Hunter
.416 Rigby
aka The Kid
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3508
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Posted: 22 June 2003 at 09:30 |
I thought that cast bullets didnt work well with the micro groove rifling.
NH_Hunter
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TasunkaWitko
Administrator
aka The Gipper
Joined: 10 June 2003
Location: Chinook Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 14749
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Posted: 22 June 2003 at 09:48 |
some peeps do well with it, but if i remember correctly, sizing is critical.
my .22 is microgrooved, and it's accuracy is pretty good, with or without jacketed bullets.
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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen
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NH_Hunter
.416 Rigby
aka The Kid
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3508
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Posted: 22 June 2003 at 10:20 |
What exactly does a gas check do? I guess i have never really thought about them seeing as i havent gotten all of my casting stuff yet. I know I have some moulds up stairs, but i think they are for .45 colt. They may be for .44 mag, but i am not sure.
NH_Hunter
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waksupi
.416 Rigby
aka Keeper of the Old Traditions
Joined: 11 June 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 2371
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Posted: 22 June 2003 at 11:25 |
Micro groove is one of the best of the cast bullet shooters when everyhing is done properly.
Go to Shooters and do a search in the cast bullet room.
Gas checks are only required when you are approaching the 1600 fps range for velocity. They are generally a waste of time on a pistol bullet.
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TasunkaWitko
Administrator
aka The Gipper
Joined: 10 June 2003
Location: Chinook Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 14749
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Posted: 22 June 2003 at 14:08 |
waksupi -
thanks for the lead! (leed, not led!) - grumble over at shotoers offered to send a couple of oversize for slugging, and i believe i will take him up on that offer.
since i intend to try these for hunting, i am assuming that i will need the extra velocity that will make gas checks necesary. i'll poke around in the archives over at shooters on this one a bit more.
nh_hunter - from what i remember, gas checks protect the cast boolit from the heat, pressure and high velocities of a load that will propel it faster than 1600-1800 fps. i THINK someone said that they also work to scrape leading out of the barrel as well, but don't take my word on that one, cause i am not sure.
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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen
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Triggerguard
.416 Rigby
aka The San Antonio Terminator
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2212
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Posted: 22 June 2003 at 16:18 |
IME, the larger the better in micro-grove rifleing. I would try .310, if they will chamber.
I can see why cast bullets have a poor reputation in microgrove and other rifles. I see them for sale
locally sized at .308. Crappy results are guaranteed at that diameter in microgrove, and not a whole lot
better in standard rifleing.
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"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke
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NH_Hunter
.416 Rigby
aka The Kid
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3508
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Posted: 23 June 2003 at 10:19 |
Thank you tasunk. Now that i know this i figger that i will need some gas checks if i plan to load .30-30 catridges with cast boolits. I too have a Marlin with a micro-groove barrel, and that was the main thing that kept me from getting all of the casting equipment. I dont hunt with the '94 much. Its not as accurate as the marlin and doesnt handle as well.
NH_Hunter
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Deputy Al
.22 LongRifle
Joined: 27 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 54
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Posted: 31 July 2003 at 04:47 |
Late entry here.....
My luck with Micro-Grooves has not been good, but I haven't tried them for a long time and have learned a whole lot since that time.
Transposing what I've learned in dealing with 9mm Luger and 40 S&W barrels, which mostly boils down to a rifling profile issue--too fast and abrupt, and too big a groove diameter in most 9mm's--the bullets gotta be AT LEAST groove diameter, and throat diameter is better. The bullet metal needs to be relatively hard. The lube needs to be SOFT--Lyman Ideal or one of Alox 2138 blends (Lee or Javelina).
If I come across another MG Marlin, I'll try this regimen with the cast bullets and see how things work out.
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Deputy Al
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waksupi
.416 Rigby
aka Keeper of the Old Traditions
Joined: 11 June 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 2371
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Posted: 31 July 2003 at 08:26 |
Ron, the extra velocity may not be all that neccessary. I've killed several bucks with a 6.5 Swede in the 1600-1700 fps. range. Worked just fine. For the most part, they didn't even know they were shot. They would stand kinda confused for a few secounds, then fold up. Hold still after your shot so you don't spook them with movement, and they will probably die right where they were shot, or within a few feet. The first one I shot with this caliber, I didn't know what to expect. When it went back to feeding again, I shot it again, assuming my first shot had missed, at which time it ran maybe thirty yards before falling. I'm sure he saw me move. Autopsy showed both shots were fatal shots. He just hadn't layed down yet. I believe the low noise level of the cast loads has something to do with this. Not to mention, the great wound channels are making them loose operating pressure real fast!
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Deputy Al
.22 LongRifle
Joined: 27 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 54
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Posted: 31 July 2003 at 09:54 |
Back now--late lunch today.
NH Hunter asked about gas checks.....basically they are a base strengthing item used to prevent base integrity from being harmed by high pressure. There is a LOT more to the issue than that, though.
Leading prevention is often cited as a reason to use gas check bullet designs. Leading is a more complex issue than it first appears, as explained by the late Walt Melander of NEI Handtools. His explanation is the best I've heard to date and is consistent with the experiences of a lot of bullet casters.
Leading--per Walt--is caused by high-pressure gas leaking past a bullet's base and sidewall thereby acting like a cutting torch and blowing vaporized lead ahead of the bullet and depositing this lead on the bore. The passage of the bullet impresses this lead onto the bore surface and begins to build up, perhaps even stripping lead from the bullet as it passes over these deposits. These deposits build up over time (sometimes a very short time) and accuracy goes haywire in a hurry.
The fix for this situation is properly sized bullets, as indicated in my prior post. This ensures the best possible seal in order to minimize possibilities of gas escaping past the bullet base and sidewall. There are limits to this ability of bullet metal to contain pressure, and this is the application where a gas check does its best work. The gilding metal of the gas check is far stronger than any lead alloy, and can contain gas pressure far better than a plain base.
However--you should not use a gas-check to make up for insufficient bullet diameter to "prevent leading", because it won't prevent leading per se. The pressure still leads the barrel, but the gas checks scrapes out most of the deposit. Accuracy suffers, because the bullet has shed lead one place and picked it up who knows where radially (around the gas check lip) and careens off unpredictably.
My view--proper diameter is more important than a bullet's metallurgy in leading prevention and in achieving accuracy. Good metal--good lube--and VERY good dimensional integrity is the key. If something has to "give", make it the metal--not the lube--NEVER the dimensions. Elmer Keith sent a lot of plain-based 44 Specials downrange at pretty high velocities using 1:16 tin/lead alloy. He was insistent on bullets sized to throat dimensions, too.
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Deputy Al
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Triggerguard
.416 Rigby
aka The San Antonio Terminator
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2212
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Posted: 31 July 2003 at 16:42 |
Good to see some activity on this board again!
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"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke
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TasunkaWitko
Administrator
aka The Gipper
Joined: 10 June 2003
Location: Chinook Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 14749
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Posted: 18 August 2003 at 19:35 |
trigger, waksupi and deputy al -
according to LEE, sizing is, in MOST cases, not necessary with bullets produced by their molds. the theory seems to be that they are going to be cast very slightly over the bore size, and then the trip down the bore will size them the rest of the way. am i reading lee correctly, in your opinion?
even if i am reading lee correctly, how does thir advice sound to you?
as stated before, my primary intention would be to use the boolits for hutning once i have worked up a good load and have sighted in well.
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TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen
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mr mom
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 10 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 342
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Posted: 19 August 2003 at 01:42 |
ron : from what i have been told the bullet will cast bigger in size because of the quality of lead. you dont need to size the bullet. i think lee has diffrent sizer dies. i have been told that for the micro groove you should use .311 so it dosent skip through the rifleing. but we tryed some 170 gr flat tip cast with i think it was 8 gr. of unique. shot real low at 50 yds. we didnt use a gas check. going to have to try some with gas checks now.
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mr mom
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Triggerguard
.416 Rigby
aka The San Antonio Terminator
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2212
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Posted: 19 August 2003 at 16:30 |
Lee molds are designed to be usable without sizing, and IME,
most are. The sizer I recommended was more to seat and crimp gas checks
than to size the bullet. It is not the quality of lead that determines "as cast" diameter.
It is the alloy, and of course the mold.
Lead, lead/tin, lead/tin/antimony have different amounts of shrinkage, depending
on the exact alloy. You can vary your as cast diameter by several thousanths by
juggleing your alloy.
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"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke
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mr mom
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 10 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 342
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Posted: 19 August 2003 at 17:01 |
trigger : sorry thats what i ment. my fingers dont alway type what my mind thinks
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mr mom
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Deputy Al
.22 LongRifle
Joined: 27 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 54
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Posted: 20 August 2003 at 01:52 |
I usually size and lube my bullets in a Lyman 450, and such a tool makes seating of gas checks a lot easier. Lyman sends a little stem with the newer 450's that lets you just seat gas checks without the bullet sidewalls entering the die, and these can help in making sure the checks go on straight when the gas check shank is a little oversize for the Hornady checks on Lyman mold designs. Lee molds have been all over the map in terms of size of castings/size of groove diameter relationships.
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Deputy Al
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Triggerguard
.416 Rigby
aka The San Antonio Terminator
Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2212
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Posted: 20 August 2003 at 04:58 |
mr mom wrote:
trigger : sorry thats what i ment. my fingers dont alway type what my mind thinks |
That's a relief! I thought I was the only one that did that!
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"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke
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