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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 07 November 2008 at 16:39 |
See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up bottom of the action to match, and the other things I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases. I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot. Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt. Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this. In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer. Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this first used the regular follower and mag spring ok, it feeds ok for him. .. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 10 November 2008 at 18:00 |
Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases. Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right next to our long original case to show how well it is built thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 364
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Posted: 15 November 2008 at 17:46 |
What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting. Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at 70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug, with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.
NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5" with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with 80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through 17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length of the Lyman.In pic on left you see the Lymans with hollowbase up and the shape of it when starting out.
Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test. Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity than Blue Dot. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
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Posted: 23 November 2008 at 05:42 |
Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length. Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening toward back. This work on the stock/action can be done in a mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 3.0" brass if long loaded 3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95". By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes up to .4"...Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 364
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Posted: 03 December 2008 at 15:44 |
We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra. There is the concept called the internal brake that works nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise. Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth 9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth. And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots. My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra. No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl. Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
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Posted: 08 December 2008 at 22:38 |
Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come with slightly extended screw in choke and is first 10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes. The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle. I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a major big bore project for me and others who asked me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH....... I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Points: 364
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Posted: 09 December 2008 at 18:13 |
More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel, regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000 ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded without resizing cases. Here is other project suggested by Boomie on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH. Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory 16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 12 December 2008 at 18:00 |
Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now, A while back I got tired of short barrel and added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work. Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110, 4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with Blue Dot, and HS 7.
Next one will be done different and easier. Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter. Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into add on piece, and will look like a brake and you could put in internal brake in the end.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 17 December 2008 at 17:02 |
Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000, which is good for gun without a real heavy barrel. I lengthened chamber for the 3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs. Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 20 December 2008 at 17:01 |
Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE. It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729" and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a .750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh, 1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC, 1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 22 December 2008 at 16:32 |
There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out, the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 27 December 2008 at 16:11 |
The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter. With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run slug into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy. Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500.
Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887 Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO 435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has 34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that is operated by the lever at bottom of opening stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey, neat looking, single shot blaster. Also have testing all done and loads set for 12ga Encore. It is set up for 3.5" plastic and brass cases for strong loads. I like to sell it to someone who likes the style. If interested contact me.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 364
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Posted: 01 January 2009 at 06:27 |
Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better. It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously. I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an 8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up on the end as shown in picture above works great. It stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock. Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug, 135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 11 January 2009 at 21:29 |
Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun. It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil barrel ring I added so forearm stays put. It has internal brake on barrel that I picture earlier in thread with the porting holes. Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups, and many folks have good accuracy with them, even in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy design. These are the ones you cast your own. And there are guys casting some for sale. You see two in wadcups on the right. On the left is my prototype of the Lyman style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow base and heavy in the front, wasn't designed to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 16 January 2009 at 20:31 |
The picture is some aluminum cored jacketed slugs
RG made, weighing 385 gr. Full .730" diameter, hollowpoint,
and one I filled nose with glue gun. Fairly streamlined. 3600 in
the Savage with our long case..Slug is nice and long,
1.22" HP and 1.4" with plastic I put in the nose.
In Nef with RMC 3.5" brass case 2700, 3.5" plastic 2500. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 21 January 2009 at 18:21 |
RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And I just tested some variety of ones myself. Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads. Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer, with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.
These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.
1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.
715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs. This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder.
Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example, with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25 as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case. A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.
On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 26 January 2009 at 04:56 |
Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting. It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores. Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber for the brass case. Good hunting loads would be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
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Posted: 31 January 2009 at 18:02 |
Here is a double projectile load that would make a good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.
Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A 515 gr Lyman slug originally for use 12ga wadcup, but now a way to use them in my NEF break action 10ga, by using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it so that the 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed
PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them. The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from him and he is in court to get it back. He is in the right and if you folks show up it will give moral support. And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.
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Ed Hubel
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Kingpin
.416 Rigby
aka Old IronSides
Joined: 01 July 2003
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Posted: 01 February 2009 at 15:42 |
Hubel, you are a very tallented photographer, not to mention machinist...............................Kingpin
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There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField
Joined: 19 January 2006
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Posted: 03 February 2009 at 18:42 |
The boy does the pictures, and uploading.
Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put together to show how heavy of powder seal and heavy cushion base that is needed. That eliminates the blowouts and damage that was happening to sabots unless I put a card under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit target straight. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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