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Lets Talk 12GA From Hell |
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Kingpin
.416 Rigby aka Old IronSides Joined: 01 July 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11716 |
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Got one on the bench as we speak, however, I think it needs a double shotgun to do it justice......................Kingpin
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There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Kingpin-They are a neat case. Your right about being great for a double Paradox gun. Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to make dies and start.Got commitment for 400 already.Let me know if interested.We are getting a 1887 12ga lever gun to test our cases in.Ed. |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Got a 1050 gr Bridger slug over 2200 in the Savage. These were a 750 gr that Bridger made for me with hollow base so I could add weight, got wt to 1050 gr. We get questions about recoil. .Now Rob's Borchardt loads gets exciting... |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4 |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches long are for use in NEF and shortened in 1887. These cases have shotgun primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads reliably,like cases with bmg primers. Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs. So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but that expansion and resizing will ruin cases in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases. I now testing AA1680 Ball and RE-7 and they look good. Have got loads with 2 wads in the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and expect it to get velocity we want in NEF. Nice thing about this testing is that similiar loads will work in shortened 87 case by just using less wad column.Ed Edited by hubel458 |
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Ed Hubel
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Rockydog
Administrator Joined: 13 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3191 |
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Ed, This stuff is really neat. Please keep on posting it and excuse the lack of replies as I, for one, have no experience to relate to with something like this. Have you ever had a pressure meter/strain guage hooked up to these to see what the pressure curve looks like? Just wondered how it compares to 3.5" 12 guage. RD
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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Apollyon67
.243 Winchester Joined: 08 September 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Ed. this is great stuff and very interesting, thanks for sharing your info with us.
ps. I love the Winchester lever action shotgun. |
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"Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin.
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case. Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy, 8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded. Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and work up if pressures allow.Ed. |
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Ed Hubel
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Rockydog
Administrator Joined: 13 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3191 |
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Ed, Ever consider the Benelli Nova Pump gun for one of these? It's got 3 rotating locking lugs similar to a rifle. I wonder if the plastic frame could take it. RD
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Rockydog- A guy named Lefteris in Greece is rigging up a Nova to use a 3" version of our case or a turned brass 3 inch case.I looked at the prints of the action, he sent me and it should work with heavy alloy barrel.. Lookinga at] pictures of the Saiga 12ga with turned bolt style locking lugs. They may work with heavy barrel.Ed. |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers. Don't need Blue Dot starter powder, like we had to do with RE-7 and RE-15 for good reliable ignition.We did 4759 in plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a nice working roll crimper attachment for drill press for crimping slugs. That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp. In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr. That's max as you must leave room for about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases may only hold 75 grains max due to the case construction.Powder is less dense than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel. In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6 inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps. Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to case construction. Cushion is a half inch felt wad or equivalent. Both lengths start down and go up if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long. This powder being faster than RE-15 you must have a little cushion in the way of felt wads or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15 a card wad works ok as powder started slower. The powder burning must build pressure to open crimp without a to high pressure spike. This bulky powder with reliable ignition is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15 loads pressure tested.Ed |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Now these loads are for only heavy barreled |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
Edited by hubel458 |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF. Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer slug load, expands the base of the case more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get more speed, in the same kind of Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us for sure what we have wrought..Ed. |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with 90 gr of 4759. We have a winner. Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi. tested with transducer test ing setup, in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+. Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would have 15k psi.So my math and developement is OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic. Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759 will give slower time to peak pressure, thus will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads I fired, that expanded cases as much or more than our 4759 loads.Ed |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad, a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about 2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi, and work through modern guns.Another load tested with same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have to put in my max loads, but go down a little and use in modern guns that are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300 to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads. One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4" chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs. Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side of bolt, and put extractor on right side. Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem may work, at least with a 2.75" case. For repeater action, Open mag well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2 12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them, as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed. |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would long enough for our long case with little work. Work long case as singleshot. Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga. The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than goose guns built same way.The left locking lug woud get a bite out on its end if front was bored out to .900, tp allow feeding of 12ga case. But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough strength to hold 30k plus loads easily. Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are as big as Savage, little more than Mauser. Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector cutout to support case opposite extractor. The original lugs will guide for feeding. Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.Ed |
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
.30/06 SpringField Joined: 19 January 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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We are working to make a big falling block action for our case by scaling up a nice looking action. Here is picture of top part of the
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Ed Hubel
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