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Let’s Talk 12GA From Hell

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hubel458 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2016 at 13:09
A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming
a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are
catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the
rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges
also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also
come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on
top.



Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the
MPI stock..



Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF




On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has
a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the
mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively
sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on
the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand,
using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble
it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good
for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few
seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2016 at 14:41
Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun cases,
holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting
with.
These with light brass slugs supposed to do over 2000
fps.




Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC,
CAN.
Known as Rocky Mtn Rifle. Video is on Youtube of
testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy.
They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A

Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for
a guy,
the second one they built. First one killed the buff
pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for
585HE..



Picture of Rossi singleshot with 585 barrel mono-blocked
into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, for testing in a
light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols.
Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got lots of
cases. Ed


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2016 at 10:43
Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.



The style of most break actions singles aren't the
greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we
mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One
that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.

Well the guys have found one that is super strong
lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga
light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little
brother of the 585HE.

Told company if they did them NEFUltra style, rifled,
heavy 12ga slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them
fast enough.




Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and
Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is
in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did..
Ed



Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted
the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the
actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes..
Ed


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2016 at 22:31
We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our
back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,




Here is folder shotgun, the guys set up as 24ga FH.
Shoots nice, looks nice, it a more expensive break
action,
compared to many others.




Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.




Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..




Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
with
variety of bullets..Can get energy like regular elephant
guns..Ed




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2016 at 01:39
There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.




Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2016 at 17:00
Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from
helix driver

wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to
go in cup.

Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.






Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action
for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and
Accuratereloading,

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC
Canada, with a

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey
laminate. He imported

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet
River in Lloydminster AB.






That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got,
that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal
cartridge the neighbor made,

from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is
big one on the right.

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge
scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2016 at 03:02
Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with

Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell
cases done.

Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with
unbreakable rims.

Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email ---
--   

b.bertram1@bigpond.com    ......





Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal Cartridge and Mitchell
Fitzpatrick's win.......

.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype
solid 400gr Berger bullets.

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5
Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and
a Lethal Precision Arms

muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own
gunsmith shop, will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and
long range hunting..


Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits
at the 2477-yard target,

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes
shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid performed
great, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).






Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint
Stock. These are super strong.

The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys
doing them....... Ed









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2016 at 12:34
Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan

Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.




Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect
lettering

for our case as it came from production line,.




I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for
singleshots.

We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we
adapted

a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better,
and

handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to
add weight,





Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the
wildcat

375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also.
Ed



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 18:29
Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with
his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good
job.


Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new
COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,




We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking
down our 585 HE.
The other couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our
own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the
other one...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues,
We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting
guys going. King of 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375
necked from our case,

Here's how we size and seat 375 HE, a simple die, a 1"
die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a
regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch
of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press.That way I
can clean pocket, check
flash hole,....... SO First with lock ring set, I size
cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the
case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of
the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.
About .35" down.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness
as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in
press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill
bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram,
case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we
carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder,
raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as
big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no
crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no
380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done.
About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will
do more.

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is
public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2017 at 00:35
Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada
got in

Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture








MAR 10




Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing
585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel
would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..









Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.




Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole
stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.




Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm
specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our bigger case .Ed




Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for
the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun,
starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders
needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer
prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain...
Ed



Edited by hubel458
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2017 at 11:37
Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot
loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.




Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases,    
2 on left necked, 2 on right formed in hydro die after
necking..

]

Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are
experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR
case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the
picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG
action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target,
singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough
barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill be
under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.



Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..





Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted,
,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 08:50
Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for
28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures
than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass
cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..



Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to
original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still
have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the
wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.



Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE,
have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium
machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by
wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE
necking down 416 ..




Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles
using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal
Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE
)...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3
of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot
Challenge. Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2017 at 14:13
The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that   
case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr..
Ed..




More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets
not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures
are bad case
proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of
powders...........
and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as
shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one,
in longer freebore....Ed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2017 at 16:46
Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed



Here is picture of 375 HE left,  416 HE next,  416 HSM right..



Here, tentative specs,  416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,




A  375  HE,  with Lawton action, few are being done with those .....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2017 at 22:05
Here is recap simple setup  to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming  chamber

 in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5"  12ga reamer, that isn't

 something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5"  brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a  quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more energy...


585 Hubel Express  video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy  load,  gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


Another view of  Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

 


Here is our  416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2018 at 21:13
Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed



We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE, 

375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our  416 HSM without

having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


Here is picture of 620   416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove. 

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we  have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 09:46
For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416  easier to get powders to work with,  less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have  375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB  will be doing .416 in  450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as  585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer, 
 did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper,  .021" per 
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k.. 

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is 
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30. 

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or 
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually 
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking.. 

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have 
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 March 2018 at 23:01
Here is a drawing depicting the layout of  thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect,  as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening  case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............


Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they 
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and 
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
 it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of  six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st  600  OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added


In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run. 
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE,  but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness, 
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they  last forever as 585s......

 Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner 
and sharp transition from the corner, tested  20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get  10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375  4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent,  factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2018 at 16:28
Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base  diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I 
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi. 

Another just sent us,  thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's  375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck  over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more 
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be  4- 4.5  inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
 contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
 be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter. 

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have 
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
 side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
 just by grinding off sharp transition corner.  Then sides would be perfect.., .

 


Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed




Ed Hubel
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Joined: 19 January 2006
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hubel458 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2018 at 09:36
Here is picture of  thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex  case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi....

 

Got guys asking and doing it,  to do 416 HSM  case for BMG actions, so  leaving rim same,
as  the original bmg rim, so  will neck them,  fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.  
Base a little bigger, Shoulder  same diameter,  same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions  .750" bolt, one for  .800-.850" bolt,  
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

Here is   416 HSM  guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed


 

Ed Hubel
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