The BaitShop Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > FireArms, et cetera > Rifles and Muzzleloaders
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Big calibers comparison
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

This site is completely supported by donations; there are no corporate sponsors. We would be honoured if you would consider a small donation, to be used exclusively for forum expenses.



Thank you, from the BaitShop Boyz!

Big calibers comparison

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Irish Bird Dog View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2009
Location: Midwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3923
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Big calibers comparison
    Posted: 10 May 2018 at 07:59
AN opinion of calibers


NRA Publications
< ="push_menu_search_btn" title="Search" aria-label="Search" style="font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-family: inherit; margin: 0px; overflow: ; cursor: pointer; border-style: none; : right; height: 40px; outline: none; padding: 5px; : relative; top: 22.5px; width: 40px; : 10;">
< style="-sizing: border-;">< ="search_field" ="text" placeholder="Search" -home="1074" -search="/search/" style="color: rgb115, 35, 0; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-family: inherit; margin: 0px; width: calc100% - 40px; : left; height: 40px; padding-left: 10px;">< ="search_field__btn" title=" Search" style="font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-family: inherit; margin: 0px; overflow: ; cursor: pointer; : rgb34, 34, 34; border-style: none; height: 40px; padding: 0px; : relative; width: 40px;">×
APPEARS IN NEWS GUNS & GEAR AMMO

Head to Head: .35 Whelen vs. 9.3x62mm Mauser

by Philip Massaro - Friday, May 4, 2018

Head to Head: .35 Whelen vs. 9.3x62mm Mauser

“Only accurate rifles are interesting.” Col. Townsend Whelen had an undeniable influence on the shooting world, and the most popular of the cartridges that bear his name is an undeniable success. While it took a while for the .35 Whelen to gain its SAAMI-approved status—Remington legitimized the cartridge in 1988—it has been with us since the early 1920s, when Col. Whelen and James V. Howe (of Griffin & Howe fame) designed the American answer to the .318 Westley Richards and .350 Rigby, making a perfectly sound cartridge for all but the biggest and most dangerous game of Africa and Asia. Stories, and sources, differ as to whether or not Whelen actually had a hand in the development (he wrote a 1923 American Rifleman article claiming to having developed it, though other stories say it was a Howe development solely), but nonetheless, the .30-06 case necked up to hold .358-inch bullets bears the Whelen moniker. It uses bullets between 180 and (rarely) 300 grains, with factory loads centered around the 180, 200, 225 and 250-grain slugs. It’ll push the big 250s at just about 2500 fps, depending on ammo manufacturer and rifle. The case length is the same as its father’s: 2.494 inches or 63mm.

Otto Bock, a gunsmith from Berlin, Germany, designed a cartridge for the numerous German emigrants in Africa that would effectively handle the wide selection of game animals in an affordable and dependable rifle. The Mauser 98 was an obvious choice, and the bullets for the 9.3x74R—introduced around 1900—were plentiful. Bock used a case head that would fit the 98 Mauser’s bolt face, but in a case 62mm in length, which would drive a 286-grain at a velocity of 2150 fps; at least that was the initial loading in 1905. It was a handy cartridge in a handy rifle, and quickly developed a solid reputation among those who had to live day-to-day with the beasts of Africa. It was easy on the shoulder, it was accurate and it was available. Unfortunately, it went relatively unnoticed here in the United States. After the World War I, the load was revised to drive the 286-grain bullet at 2350 fps (or so), making an already good cartridge into a great cartridge, nearly the equal of the mighty .375 H&H Magnum. The 9.3mm bore diameter translates to .366-inch—right in the ballpark of the .35 Whelen—and offers good frontal diameter for large wound channels. The cartridge has been used for all animals, including elephant.  

So we’ve got two similar cartridges, with cases within a millimeter in length, and a bullet diameter just a few thousandths apart. Let’s look at the differences, and see which makes the better choice. Firstly, regarding the original purpose of the 9.3x62mm Mauser, many countries have prohibited the use of bore diameters less than .375-inch, which does the 9.3mm bores a disservice. They have proven themselves—especially with the 286- and 300-grain loads—to make a perfectly viable choice on dangerous game. That aside, both the 9.3x62mm Mauser and .35 Whelen are stellar performers on the larger, non-dangerous animals of Africa—like the eland, sable and zebra—as well as the largest ungulates here in North America, like the elk and moose, and yes, they both make a great bear rifle.

Secondly, both are on the heavy side for deer, but can and will be used with good effect, often doing less meat damage that the fast magnums will. A heavy bullet at moderate velocities is a time-proven recipe, especially inside of 200 yards. With premium bullets, lighter bullets can be employed in both cartridges without fear of premature bullet breakup, further extending the flexibility of both cartridges. A .35 Whelen with a 200-grain premium bullet at 2700 fps offers a decent trajectory, as does the 230-grain 9.3x62mm Mauser load at 2650 fps. We’re starting to see just how close these two can be.

For the reloader, both cases can be created from plentiful .30-06 Springfield brass, should you need to do so. Both cases are rather efficient in their powder consumption, and both cartridges are relatively easy on the shoulder, especially in comparison to some of the super-magnums.

Who gets the crown? Which of these would a hunter choose, and why? As undeniably cool as the .35 Whelen is—and I’m definitely a fan—I’ve got to give the trophy to Herr Bock’s creation. The reason is relatively simple; I feel the ability to use the 286- and 300-grain bullets in the 9.3x62mm Mauser gives a decided advantage to the .35 Whelen. Most of the .35 caliber cartridges top out with 250-grain bullets, as do the .338 caliber cartridges. Some could argue that the additional frontal diameter makes the .35s more desirable than the .338s, though I’d immediately counter with the idea that the .338’s better sectional density figures offers better penetration.

I personally feel that if the .35s were available with a 275-grain bullet in popular factory loads, they’d be better served. The 9.3x62—like many British and European designs—has the long, heavy bullet thing figured out, offering an appropriate twist rate to properly stabilize these bullets. I’ve spent a decent amount of time with both cartridges, with both factory ammunition as well as developing handloads for each. I also had the privilege of using the 9.3x62mm Mauser in a nice Heym SR21 rifle with Norma’s 230-grain Eco Strike load to take a big Polish wild boar. It was a long shot for a red-dot sight, but both the cartridge and the bullet did their job just fine. For those few areas in Africa where the 9.3x62 is legal for dangerous game—Mozambique comes quickly to mind—it will take buffalo cleanly, especially when loaded with heavy softpoints and backed up by equally heavy solids.

If you’re a .35 Whelen guy, I get it. It has an American flair, it commemorates a great American ballistician and it does get the job done. Though it is not nearly as popular in the United States, I feel the 9.3x62 offers a little bit more in a similar package. Bullet weights are available in 230, 250, 270, 285/286, 300 and even 325 grains, whether factory loaded or in component form, and that’s a pretty wide selection. There are spitzer boattails, round nose, bonded core, monometal and solids available, so there’s literally something for everyone for this cartridge. American companies now load for it, and there are some great European loads as well. Thank you, Herr Bock; you nailed it.

Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter
Back to Top
RobertMT View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar

Joined: 12 March 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3957
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 11:53
I had a chance at picking up both a 9.3x62 and 375 H&H, at pretty good price, few years ago, besides having too short of stock for me, I couldn't think of a need. I decided 338 was a sensible limit, for my needs, though a 50BMG is still on the list.
NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   

Back to Top
BEAR View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 07 September 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 8668
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 12:01
Good article IBD, thanks for the post.

I certainly can't disagree with the conclusion.  In the past 3 years I've taken an elk, a bear, and a whitetail with the 9.3x62...all one shot kills.

The 35 Whelen is a fine cartridge, but would prefer a 338-06 as there are more and better bullets available for the 338.  Certainly expect hornady or Ruger to bring out thr 338-08 in a couple of years.
About 6 years ago at MYGAWDS, I had my 9.3x62 for all to shoot.  Cold windy day; only a few wusses complained about KICK.  Doesn't kick me!

Staying on the 9.3, the SAKO 370 is a fantastic round, IMO.
Back to Top
Irish Bird Dog View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2009
Location: Midwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3923
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 07:31
Here is my take on Big Bore calibers which interests me

A crash course in Rifleman Logic 101 

Need be damned…..it has always drawn me to it, “it” being the .338-06 Wildcat caliber. However, it is now or was a legitimate rifle cartridge since the A-Square company had it “baptized” by SAMMI.

I guess for one reason it has appealed to me is I don’t have a modern CF rifle in anything larger than .30 caliber. Well, a second  and maybe more compelling reason, is I have a nice LH 30-06 Savage M110 bolt gun doing nothing but hanging around the gun room that could easily be re-barreled for a .338-06. Thirdly there is no reason for me to add one to my battery of rifles but then that ain’t really a reason is it? Lastly when has reason ever been a factor when wanting, buying or building a new rifle?

There!....I guess I dun reasoned that out satisfactorily. 

 

Behind the Bullet: .338-06 A-Square

by Philip Massaro - Friday, March 2, 2018

Behind the Bullet: .338-06 A-Square

The .30-06 Springfield case has been the impetus for a good number of very useful wildcat and commercial derivative cartridges. From the .270 Winchester to the .35 Whelen, and the Remington pair of .25-06 and .280, the cartridge dimensions offer a useable blend of powder capacity and shooter-friendly levels of recoil. But, I may have to vote for the least known of the offspring for the coolest of the lot—the .338-06 A-Square.

https://assets.americanhunter.org/media/1993676/behind-the-bullet-1.jpgFirst, let’s take a look at the bullet diameter. The .33 Winchester was a fat, rimmed cartridge designed for the Model 1886 lever-action rifle, and it was built around a 200-grain flat-point bullet of .338-inch diameter. While moderately successful, the cartridge was retired when Winchester discontinued the ’86 in favor of the more powerful .348 Winchester in the Model 71. Elmer Keith, along with a couple of buddies, worked on some wildcat cartridges using the .30-06 case and a shortened version of the .300 H&H case, both mated with the heavier bullets of the nominal .333 Jeffery. While these wildcats worked just fine, wildcats they were.

Winchester saw the wisdom of the design, and in 1958, released the .338 Winchester Magnum, using a belted case (from the .375 & .300 H&H Magnums) shortened to 2.500 inches, and—presumably—using a bullet diameter that Winchester had been geared up for. The spitzer bullets showed their advantage over the flat points used in the .33 Winchester, and the .338 Winchester Magnum was an overnight success, being a perfect choice for elk, moose and the big northern bears. But, with the additional velocity comes increased recoil.

https://assets.americanhunter.org/media/1994646/_338-06a-square_inset1.jpg

When a new cartridge or bullet diameter is released, the wildcatters immediately start buzzing like a nest of disturbed hornets. Some designs work well, and may make their way to the Big Show, while others stay in the minor leagues for quite a while; the .35 Whelen is a classic example of a long-term wildcat becoming commercially accepted. The .30-06 case has been reworked to hold bullets from .22 caliber all the way up to .416 caliber, with varying degrees of success, but it seems that the .338-inch bullet diameter fits the case nearly as well as any other. While it was around as a wildcat cartridge for a number of years, it was Col. Arthur B. Alphin’s A-Square company who legitimized the design, receiving SAAMI approval in 1998, with Weatherby chambering rifles for the cartridges. It utilizes the 17.5 degree shoulder and the same case length as its parent—2.494 inches—so the conversion from an existing .30-06 Springfield rifle is not a serious thinking job for a competent gunsmith.

For a hunter who routinely pursues the bigger beasts, it makes a whole lot sense, for a number of reasons. The .338-inch diameter is typically offered with bullets between 200 and 250 grains, but the modern—and some of the older—bullet developments have changed all that. Yes, the 200, 225 and 250s work just perfectly in the .338-06, but there is more to offer for a hunter who wishes to utilize the cartridge to its full potential. On the heavier end of the spectrum, Swift offers their A-Frame at 275 grains for serious bone-smashing power, and on the lighter end, there are bullets like the Nosler AccuBond available at 180 grains. This, combined with the traditional bullets, gives the hunter a cartridge that is very versatile, yet easier on the shoulder than the .338 Winchester Magnum, though the velocities run only 150 fps or so behind the larger case.

The 250-grain bullets will leave the muzzle at 2,500 fps or so, compared to the .338 Winchester’s 2,650 fps. That slight reduction in velocity translates to a very noticeable difference in felt recoil, yet within normal field ranges, the differences are diminished. Not that there is anything wrong with the .338 Winchester Magnum, but I personally find it to be the tipping point for ‘snotty recoil’—I’ve had some .338 Win. Mag. rifles deliver a serious beating to the shoulder, especially off the bench. The .338-06 tends to be gentler, and therefore easier to shoot. When there’s a big bear on the other end of the line, that fact may become an important consideration.

https://assets.americanhunter.org/media/1994649/_338-06a-square_lead.jpg

If the cartridge intrigues you, as it does me, ammunition can be handloaded rather easily. Cases can be made from the readily available .30-06 Springfield brass, using a set of .338-06 resizing dies with a good tapered expander ball. One careful pass through the die, and you should be set, though the cases may come out a bit shorter than the desired length from the resizing process. Other than that, it’s a straight-forward process, with the .338-06 running well on the medium to medium-slow burning powders like Hodgdon’s H380, IMR4064, and Alliant’s Reloder15 and IMR4350. Sparked by a standard large rifle primer, the .338-06 is efficient with regards to powder consumption.

If you’re looking for something out of the norm, which can be housed in a handy rifle that hits hard, give the .338-06 a look; if you spend a bit of time with it I believe you’ll become a fan rather quickly.

 

Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter
Back to Top
BEAR View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 07 September 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 8668
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 08:03
shaw  $240 blued, 110 contoured, drop in 338-06.

Back to Top
BEAR View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 07 September 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 8668
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 08:06
Interesting, if I recall 10-20 years ago all interest was in heavy bullet rifles  180 grains+.  Currently people seem to be interested in lighter recoil, aka 260 rem, 6.5 Creedmore, variants of 223.

Maybe the wimpy Ar started the trend??????
Back to Top
Irish Bird Dog View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2009
Location: Midwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3923
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 09:15
[QUOTE=BEAR]shaw  $240 blued, 110 contoured, drop in 338-06.


/QUOTE]

Interesting site. 

I have a Shaw bbl from early 70's chambered in the then wildcat 7mm-08 caliber.  
Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter
Back to Top
Irish Bird Dog View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2009
Location: Midwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3923
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 09:18
Originally posted by BEAR BEAR wrote:

Interesting, if I recall 10-20 years ago all interest was in heavy bullet rifles  180 grains+.  Currently people seem to be interested in lighter recoil, aka 260 rem, 6.5 Creedmore, variants of 223.

Maybe the wimpy Ar started the trend??????

10-20 yrs ago gun guys were still under the influence of the Elmer Keith passion for heavy bullet big bore rifles & handguns. 
Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter
Back to Top
BEAR View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 07 September 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 8668
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 09:39
Being in the east, except for groundhogs, seldom is game shot beyond 100 yards.  So flat shooting rifles like the 270/257 are really not needed.  For deer the 243 is really no better than the 30-30; probably not as good.

years back someone discovered that in the east the average deer was shot at 55 yards.

I have 6 rifles over 30 cal that shoot 200-500 grain bullets.  Not cause they are needed, just wanted.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Hunting in the west is WAY different.  less hunting more  scoping and long range shooting.  So the 270/257 rifles are important; and the 30-30 is less appropiate.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Of course the 9.3x62 fits everywhere!   LOL
Back to Top
RobertMT View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar

Joined: 12 March 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3957
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 15:18
If you get the 338-06 barrel, bring it and donor rifle, next time you're out. I have all the tools to change it and have done quite a few Savage barrel swaps.

Might as well save some $ 338-06 barrel
NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.