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Are gun makers just stupid???

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BEAR View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 December 2017 at 15:14

As one by one US gun makers go out of business or sell to overseas investors, we must ask who is running the companies.   MBA??????

 

Look at Savages latest new offering.  A reinventing of a side-by-side FOX  shotgun.

 

Fox, under its Savage owner went to junk immediately.  I had one for years in the '60s as a kid (then Fox Model B). 

 

So times are tough, they go thru some old engineering drawings and resurrect an old model and try to jazz it up.   yep they add choke tubes.

 

BUT it is the old Fox B with double triggers.  Americans don't want double triggers, even if some of us love side-by-sides.  And they price it at $5,000...ouch.  For way  less than that, I could by a perfect in box Browning Belguim made Supposed!  Might even get a dove hunt in Mexico also.

 

Firearms sales are going down, US quality has been reduced to keep profits up (or losses lower).  Don’t the US manufacturers have some innovation???

 

 Henry is advertising it single shot break action cheapo rifle (copy of H&R topper), and an other  high price for junk.

 

In 5 years there will be no domestic made firearms, except those import made for the government.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2017 at 10:11
Subject of this post is worth discussing.
Seems like maybe not so good for gun companies to get "owned" by Big outfits who are just investors & bottom line worried vs product quality concerns.
Take this example some conglomerate bought Remington (among other gun companies) who then bought Marlin & Bushmaster & another AR firm. Stories are that Marlin M39's under Remington leadership, as an example, have gone down in quality since that buyout...now even heard (from factory rep) the 39 not in current production line. But Remington now markets a AR for hunting as a result of those AR accusations....good AR's, I don't know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2017 at 10:55
yes
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2017 at 11:09
The latest craze are the AR type rifles, or Modern Sporting Rifles. I could careless if I ever had one, but that is where the $$ is now. On the other end are the "entry level" rifles. Americans, Axis, Patriots etc. They are cheap, both in cost and quality, but shoot pretty well. The nicer stuff is still more money (70s, 700s, 77s) but the quality has waned greatly over the years. The Ruger Hawkeye are not nearly as well built as the old 77s and I have heard lots of complaints on the new 700s. The New production 70 I have heard very good things about, but they are made overseas now. What it seems the major manufacturers do, is limit what you can get as far as caliber selection, barrel length, finish etc. I have a pretty good collection of hunting rifles and as I save up $$ I start shopping for something new. My searches at the aforementioned manufacturers' websites left me lacking. 30-06s, 308s and 7mm Mags, nothing wrong with them, but I have one (or 2) of about all the common calibers. But, if they chambered a less than common round, then they would have to make ammo...more expense for probably little return. Quality craftsmanship is a thing of the past, unless you go custom, or at least semi-custom. Very disappointing...I understand the entry level offerings, maybe get someone into shooting/hunting that wouldn't otherwise (could be a good thing...could not) but how about keeping the quality to the stuff that always has been quality! Anyhow, with all that said, I am waiting for my new Kimber in 257 Roberts to get here!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2017 at 18:13
Kimber 84, Ruger no1, weatherby Mark V  Still the three best out there.  the mark V and no1 are in limited production soon to be discontinued.  get then now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2017 at 18:38
Bear, the new Vanguards are very nice for the price...got it all over the others entry level rifles. I have a new Kimber Hunter coming, a Montana Rifle Co will be next when I get the $$ saved up. I have never owned a #1 but always wanted to. The Mk5 I had was ultra heavy and impractical as a hunting rifle, weighed around 25lbs!! Well, maybe not that much, but it seemed like it. I know they have many lightweight offerings now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2017 at 19:11
Weatherby uses HOWA products for the Vanguard series of their rifles. No idea now where they have the Mk V rifles built anymore, never were made in the USA. Good rifles but I don't like the safety on them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2017 at 01:53
The Mark V has always been a strong work horse with 26" barrels, so Maple they were heavy weight.

Roy Weatherby started building custom rifles  in California, late ’40-50s.  He built on many actions including Mausers, Enfields, Springfields  mil surplus.  As time went on he  sort of got stuck on the p14 Enfields because of it extra long length action.  That is where his ugly clumsy safety evolved from.

I love one of his early ads, he stoof with a 300 weatherby Mark V infront of a 10" diameter tree shredded to splinters with one shot.  Not sure if it was a 'fixed' ad; but to me and many others it convinced the gun public MarkV and the 300 Weatherby was something different.  I never shot a tree!!!

 

He wanted a more refined action and had the mark v designed.  He had the Mark v built to his specmainly by J.P. Sauer and Son in  West Germany. A few were built by other euo mfgs including Sako.   It was a 6 lug action.  Often called an interrupted thread design.    Latter he wanted a stronger action and  add 3 lugs (9 lug action).  He had them built, (about 1970) by Howa in Japan (that is where the relationship for the imported Vanguard began).  Both 6 and 9 lug actions were then made in Japan. In response to the ‘buy American feelings, in 1995 Weatherby moved the Mark V back to the USA, and actions are marked that way.  Today Mark Vs are made in Paso Robles, California.

Lots of folks value the German models highest, I think the Japan models had a more polished metal and more nicely figure wood.  His rifles lost some holding in the gun community when they went toJapan manufacture ( most Japanesse products were considered junk, many rightfully so in the '60-'70s).  

 Early they made just a few models with distinctive and beautiful wood stocks (although they did sell some heavily engraved models, where ever they were made).  The backward angled foe end nose piece of ebony colored wood was their distinctive trademark.  Today they make many models of Mark V including syn stocked SS, aka ugly models.

I met roy weatherby in the late 1960s at his shop, outside of  Los Angeles in South Gate, not far from Watts (aka riot central).  This was a combo sales office and manufacture assembly shop. His early rifles wee built and assembled thee.  Roy was a quiet, polite guy who started as a salesman from the auto club.  He spent a good bit of time showing me  various models and talking  gun/shooter/hunter enthusiam.  Seem to remember he died in the late ‘80s; but his family retained control of the company for decades; not sure if they still do.

Gary, that stupid safey is the only thing I've never like about the Mark V!!!!!  Just some thougths and memories.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2017 at 02:06
"... the new Vanguards are very nice for the price."     I remember the Howa (now called Vanguard) selling for $152 at Grice's a few years back.  I was there last week and they had one with a look-a-like Mark V stock for a discounted price of $980.  they were low end value a few years back, even when they were sold by Smith and Wesson.  But today they are way overpriced...shows how valuable the Weatherby Trademark is.

Edited by BEAR - 13 December 2017 at 08:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2017 at 19:41
to keep in the post theme.....Roy Weatherby as a gun maker/seller (ok that takes care of that) was friends with Roy Rogers and when at the Roy Rogers museum in Branson few yrs back learned about their friendship. The family has sense sold off all the artifacts/stuff from the museum and closed it down. Some of RR's long guns were displayed there and some were Weatherbys. 

Bear now you mention it that darned ugly safety lever on the MK V certainly has the family resemblance to the Enfield one...to me it was/is clumsy to operate and seem to remember it has to be rotated 180* from on to off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2017 at 01:44
I do believe Brownells makes a drop-in safety that very closely resembles the model 70's as well as one that works like a 700 for the MK V. Simple swap as they like most others are very Mauser-like in construction and basic design.
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2017 at 05:01
jsg....can't find any reference to a Weatherby REplacement SAFETY for MK V....just trigger's

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2017 at 18:26
I have a new Vanguard S2, I think that is the model. Synthetic stock, nice matte blue finish. I also have a Ruger American and Dad won a new Mossberg Patriot, so I have shot those 3 "entry level" rifles. The Weatherby has it ALL OVER the other 2. The action is smoother, the trigger better, finish is nicer. IIRC, you can have a new VG S2 for $500+/-. Mine is in 240Wby Mag and it is an absolute laser. The Ruger and Mossberg shoot well, but the trigger on the Mossberg feels like it was finished with 180grit sandpaper and the stock and finish on both the Moss and Ruger are...well, cheap. No question for me...next one will be 257Wby! You can have the Ruger or Moss for @$350-$400...I'll spend the extra $100-$150! My Mk5 was absolutely a stunning example of craftsmanship. USA made, beautiful piece of wood, gloss finish, deep blue, silky smooth action, but my god you need a pack mule to get it around the woods. I didn't have it long. I will never have a 26" barrel on a rifle I intend to hunt with. I have a pretty good collection of hunting rifles, and I am always looking for the "perfect" hunting rifle...26" barrels don't fit in that category. It is no doubt why Weatherby got the great reputation it did from it's inception until today. Their low end offering are very nice for the price. That is my $.02 worth!

Edited by MapleHill - 12 December 2017 at 18:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 08:10
IBD those replacement parts may be for the Vanguard, so look under Howa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 12:37
Thinking on Weatherby.
Weatherby was never a major player in the firearms inductry; its biggest role is its current, acting as an importer for Howa rifles.

Unusual in that the Founder Roy Weatherby was probably the biggest influence on the US rifle market.  You could say he inventer "magnumistis".  The H&H cartridges started the name; but Roy made the game.

The Weatherby magnums, while not owned by many average shooters, influenced most every cartridge since 1969, except the 223.

I strongly suspect that soon the family may sell the company, probably to Howa.  The new ownership would soon drop the Mark V as a financial looser.  But as long as the family owns it, I'd think they would keep the memory of their father/grandfather alive with the Mark V.  I do notice they have this year made some minor changes and cosmetics to bring a 60 year old product into a newer light.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 18:11
Originally posted by BEAR BEAR wrote:

IBD those replacement parts may be for the Vanguard, so look under Howa.

No, it said parts for the Mk V Weatherby.
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