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AI improved cartridges???/

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BEAR View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 June 2016 at 12:53
First im a BIG fan of P.O. But he is rooted in the 1960s.

The only advantages of an AI cartridge is slightly more
powder and a slighly less tapped in the body.

These things were good in the 1960s when powder choices were
limited, and lots of terrible heavy taper body cartridges
were floating around from the 1800 and early 1900s. things
like 300 H&H, 30-40 Krag, 303 Brit. etc.

Is there any really significant thing gained from an AI
today on things like 270, 280, etc??????

I see 50-100 fps as the gain, often with load data that
neglects a higher pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2016 at 13:09
BEAR;

If I remember correctly, Klallen here had a .280 Remington
A.I. & is happy with it. You might see if he'll weigh in
on the subject.

900F
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wing master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2016 at 18:43
I think it depends on the cartridge. I think it would be
worth the trouble to AI a .257 Roberts or a .280.

I have also read that you can expect some accuracy gain.
But I don't really see why that would happen.

Wing master
I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish Bird Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2016 at 03:19
I have no knowledge to offer on this subject..but I do have P.O.'s two book set on his working with his A.I. cartridges. Haven't dusted them off for some time now.

Bear you might be on the right track as now we have much more choices in powders (for one example look at Hornadys offerings of low recoil type rounds & more energy type rounds they offer with the powder used being the major player in performance) which may negate the need for the A.I. brass in common cartridges.

Modern bullets too may enter in the mix for getting "more" from standard cartridge cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2016 at 06:31
I'm a big fan of PO and read and reread his volumes.

really radical cartridges like 303 brit, and 30-40 Krag
could benefit from increased capacity by blowing out the
bodies.

Unfortunately most rifles in these cartridges, are 100 years
old and can't take the pressure of the regular cartridge
load hot.

Some exceptions: Ruger #3 and #1,

My Ruger 30-40 Krag is giving me '06 factory velocity with
book max loads. Going to a 30-40 Krag improved would get me
to 300 h&h factory velocity easily. But i'm not going to
risk my sub MOA accuracy, for 150 fps.

Still see a lot of false positives about improving the 243,
244, 280, and 270. But these would have to be a expense of
much higher pressure. And with those much higher pressure
in the original cartridge I believe the difference would be
less than 50-75 fps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2016 at 06:49
The 6mm rem does not gain much either
Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2016 at 10:50
Fella's;

Well, for all practical purposes, the 6mm Remington is an
Ackley Improved .243 Winchester. Two different parent
cases & all that, but the performance gain from the .243 to
the 6mm is very similar to what's typically seen when one
A.I.'s a cartridge.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2016 at 12:59
I've had two improved, 22-250 and 243, the main advantage was reduced case stretch. You could run them a bit hotter, mainly because of reduced bolt thrust, case gripped chamber wall better, because of reduced taper. Down side, throats burned out faster, because of extra powder required and you got sticky extraction, because of reduced case taper.

I have several newer chamberings, that were designed using the "improved" principle, from the start, decreased taper and sharper shoulder angle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stinky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2016 at 07:16
I have read where cartridges like the 30-30 (specifically), .303 & .30-40, that do not have a lot of case volume, and are relatively low pressure and lots of body taper, gain the most.  They get a well need volume increase and pressure goes down...because of the reduced taper, the case, during the firing sequence, in supported in more of a right angle to the bore axis. 

The closer you are to the bore axis, the more rearward thrust you have.  The closer you are to a right angle to the bore axis, the thrust is more a against the 90 deg walls on the chamber, and not towards the bolt face.

I don't remember the numbers, but supposedly, in a .30-30AI...for the same pressure, there is a good fps increase.

I don't know why a .280 would need anymore fps.


Edited by stinky
John 14:6
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2016 at 08:41
Had the 22-250 Imp., what a shooter! Lost it in a divorce......really miss that gun! And yes, they are a bit sticky with the straight case. Fire formed new brass was never an issue, but the reloaded brass...just didn't like to eject as smoothly.

That was 16 years ago and I still miss it dearly. Avg. group with the 54gr. Sierra matchkings was 2.14" at 400yds. 5 shot. Wood stocked, Rem. BDL, Tuned, squared, and hand-lapped, with a Jewell trigger and a Douglas precision barrel. Had a nice 6 x 18 Elite with the dot on it. Simple and sweet.
...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VarmintGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2016 at 16:01
Bear: Yes a shooter/Hunter does gain velocity with Ackley
Improved cartridges and that has various benefits in and
of itself.
A shooter/Hunter also gains in brass life and in my
experience also gains in less standard deviation in
velocity from shot to shot between Ackley Improved
cartridges and "un-improved" cartridges of similar
velocities.
I enjoyed my Ackley Improved cartridges but haven't had
one made in about a decade now.
Why?
Because of initial expense - most notably in having ANY
custom, barrel, Rifle, action, chambering job put
together, anymore.
My last Ackley Improved custom Rifle I had made was in
6mm Remington Ackley Improved and it is a superb Rifle
with superb accuracy and apparently infinite brass life.
The cost of that build and the dies still is fresh in my
mind. And that memory is not a pleasant one.
Anymore I look for "standard" and new calibers in factory
offerings - I've been there and done that with Ackley
Improved customs.
Ever try to get your money back out of a "custom/Ackley
Improved" Rifle?
I have, and I have seen it attempted many more times!
You will suffer a larger percentage of loss of initial
investment with an Ackley Improved Rifle than if you had
simply bought a factory Rifle used it carefully then re-
sold it!
Custom Rifles in custom calibers were a several decades
long "fad" for me - I'm over it now.
Hold into the wind
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tj3006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2016 at 11:26
I have a .257 Roberts AI.
    The only real improvement is case life. And Who
cares about that. With all the money i have spent on
Rifles and reloading, 50 new brass every year or two is
nothing...tj3006

Freedom 1st tj3006
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2016 at 07:17
Varmint sounds like a great rifle. unfortunately your
new barrel was chambered originally for the improved
cartridge. Might have shot as good or better in 6mm
Rem.

Would be nice to see someone take standard rifle and
work up the most accurate load, then ream to IMPROVED,
and then check accuracy velocity etc.

Every improved cartridge has a small powder increase.
If loaded the same as the original non-improved
cartridge, it must shoot slower as it has more volume
that needs pressurized. So we all more powder and
that gets it back up to standard. then we can load
more powder and THIS IS WHERE THE QUESTION IS.

Is there a significant increase in velocity BEFORE we
get to a higher pressure than factory?

In the case of the Roberts, I suspect the velocity is
only significantly increase when comparied to low
pressure Roberts loads.

I just wonder with a 257 Robert at P+ pressure
compared to the 257 Robert Improved at the same P+
pressure; would there be a significant increase in
velocity?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tj3006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 12:51
Since Bear brought it up !
   I would consider trading or selling my .257 Roberts
AI with dies formed brass and the works.
   Its, an FN side safety action, with a 25 inch Douglas
barrel.
   It could easily be rechamerd to 257 weatherby if
someone wanted.
   It probably has 200 rounds through it.
Don't have any thing in mind but i am a .308 guy these
days ...tj3006
Freedom 1st tj3006
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RaySendero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2017 at 14:35
Originally posted by BEAR BEAR wrote:

.....

Is there any really significant thing gained from an AI
today on things like 270, 280, etc??????

.....



BEAR,

My rule-of-thumb has been that "to improve on a cartridge I already have, I want a 500 fps increase in velocity with the same bullet wt. or a 50% increase in bullet wt. at the same velocity". Thus I never invested in an AI cartridges.

However, I did some homework on AIs - Just curious. Found some cartridges would benefit more from AIing much more than others. Suggest you do more homework yourself and evaluate what you really need/want. Me, I just find a cartridge that would provide more ump that the AIs and buy/build a new rifle for it.

PS: Also found its much more fun to do a new rifle than it is to do a new cartridge!!!

Edited by RaySendero
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEARHUNTER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2017 at 14:07
I like this topic. Have a buddy
at work who has a 35 Whelen AI
that he wants to get rid of.
Don't even know what action it's
built on. But the price is right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2017 at 00:18
Nice to see you post Bearhunter.

The 35 Whelen is in itself a great cartridge, AI
certainly doesn't hurt.

Lots of AI in varmint cartridges (like 22-250AI) have
barrels that have been shot out. Seems guys that want
to push the velocity also like ultra HOT loads. But I
double many people will ever shoot out a 35 Whelen AI.

The 35 W AI is a real thumper, great for BIG bears and
Elk.

If it is a bargain...go for it. I've found IF I pass
on a bargain, I'll soon regret it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garou_22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2017 at 15:29
I personally don't have any experience with AI cartridges.

That said, I have spoke with a fella who swears by them, specifically the .223 AI with a modified twist rate to boot.  I don't recall the particulars of his fiddling, just the stories of flipping prairie dogs 10-15 feet in the air at ranges of 1000yds and more.

The fella I speak of is the owner/operator of Young's Gunsmithing in Tracy, MT.  And while I'm not convinced of his adherence to Barnes Bullets, the rest I'm willing to believe.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasunkaWitko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2017 at 16:52
I know the place - my wife grew up in Tracy ~ lots of great folks out there, and really, really good home-cooking....
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