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8mm magnum vs .325 wsm

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    Posted: 02 September 2011 at 16:59
Just to throw out the one 8mm Magnum around.....really BIG case compared to the .325 WSM...see them both here.....

The 8mm Remington Magnum belted rifle cartridge was introduced by Remington Arms Company in 1978 as a new chambering for the model 700 BDL rifle. The 8 mm Remington Magnum's parent case is the .375 H&H Magnum. It is a very long and powerful cartridge that cannot be used in standard length actions, such as those that accommodate the .30-06 Springfield.[3]

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[edit] Background

The 8 mm Remington Magnum was intended to compete with the .300 Weatherby Magnum and .338 Winchester Magnum. Remington’s decision to use a metric bullet may have been prompted by their past success with the 7 mm bore diameter.[3]

Even though the 8 mm Remington Magnum has never been very popular, it is a very suitable cartridge for the hunting of elk, moose, caribou, and larger African antelope. However, the .338 Winchester Magnum had a 30 year head start on the market, and is short enough for medium length actions, which increases the models of rifles it could be produced in. It is also available with heavier bullets, although this isn't a problem for people that load their own rounds of this caliber. Bullet selection is quite critical with the 8mm Remington Magnum since the bullets have to be designed and constructed to hold together at magnum velocities.[4]

[edit] Cartridge dimensions

The 8mm Remington Magnum has 6.43 ml (99 grain) H2O cartridge case capacity.

8 mm Remington Magnum.svg

8mm Remington Magnum maximum C.I.P. cartridge dimensions. All sizes in millimetres (mm).

Americans would define the shoulder angle at alpha/2 = 25 degrees. The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 254 mm (1 in 10 in), 6 grooves, Ø lands = 8.00 mm, Ø grooves = 8.20 mm, land width = 3.10 mm and the primer type is large rifle magnum.

According to the official C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives) guidelines the 8mm Remington Magnum case can handle up to 460 MPa (66717 psi) piezo pressure. This is a very high maximum chamber pressure limit for a rifle cartridge and ≈ 2.6 % above the SAAMI maximum piezo pressure rating of 448 MPa (65000 psi). In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.

The German 8 x 68 S cartridge introduced in 1939 is probably the closest ballistic twin of the 8 mm Remington Magnum. The 8 x 68 S is however a rebated rim cartridge.

[edit] The 8mm Remington Magnum in field use

The 8 mm Remington Magnum as a pure civil cartridge can be used in countries which ban civil use of former or current military ammunition.

A powerful cartridge like the 8 mm Remington Magnum has its drawbacks. Like every other big game cartridge it presents a stout recoil. Since there are not many factory loads available, the 8 mm Remington Magnum is often used by reloaders. They can use this cartridge to create powerful loads by handloading, while staying within the 448 MPa (65000 psi) SAAMI piezo pressure limit. Combined with bullets with jackets designed for magnum cartridge muzzle velocities, and barrels of 650 mm (25.6 in) or longer to promote high muzzle velocities, the 8 mm Remington Magnum offers the flattest trajectory and best long range performance of the commercially available 8 mm rifle cartridges.

From 8 mm caliber upwards the rise of sectional density and penetrating capability of practical spin stabilized rifle bullets (bullets up to 5 to 5.5 calibers in length) tends to flatten out.[5]

This means that loaded with light, short and soft nosed 8 mm bullets the 8 mm Remington Magnum can be used on remarkably small game. Loaded with heavy, long and hard (solid copper) bullets the 8 mm Remington Magnum offers enough velocity derived power to penetrate heavy and dangerous game. The 8 mm Remington Magnum is suitable for hunting almost any game animal on the planet, though certain sub-Saharan Africa countries have a 9.53 mm (.375 in) or 10.2 mm (.40 in) minimum caliber rule for hunting Big Five game - i.e. leopard, lion, cape buffalo, rhinoceros and African elephant. In the Central African Republic, where there are no ammunition limits for hunting Big Five game, the 8 mm Remington Magnum’s somewhat smaller sister cartridge the 8 x 68 S is used successfully for hunting African elephant. At equal chamber pressure and 650 mm (25.6 in) barrel length the larger 8 mm Remington Magnum produces 3 to 5 % extra muzzle velocity.

[edit] 8mm cartridges compared

Maximum muzzle velocity comparison in % of the probably most proliferated European and American 8 mm rifle cartridges out of 650 mm (25.59 in) long barrels loaded with relatively light to heavy 8 mm bullets to their C.I.P. or SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute) sanctioned maximum pressures.

Bullet weight gram (grain) 8.23 g (127 gr) 9.72 g (150 gr) 11.34 g (175 gr) 12.96 g (200 gr) 14.26 g (220 gr) Case capacity (%)
7.92 x 57 Mauser (8 x 57 IS) 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0
8 x 64 S 102.7 102.7 102.8 102.9 102.9 110.3
.325 WSM 108.7 109.1 109.0 109.3 111.1 131.7
8 x 68 S 108.4 108.5 108.7 110.5 112.3 136.5
8 mm Rem. Mag. 111.9 112.3 114.5 115.3 116.0 157.1

This comparison is not totally objective since the 8 mm Remington Magnum and .325 WSM operate at 448.16 MPa (65000 psi), the 8 x 68 S at 440 MPa (63817 psi), the 8 x 64 S at 405 MPa (58740 psi) and the 7.92 x 57 mm Mauser at 390 MPa (56564 psi) maximum chamber pressure. Higher chamber pressure results in higher muzzle velocities.

[edit] The 8mm Remington Magnum as parent case

[edit] 7mm STW (Shooting Times Westerner)

The 8 mm Remington Magnum case has functioned as the parent case for the 7mm STW, which is essentially a 7mm (.284 caliber) necked-down version of the 8 mm Remington Magnum. Designed by Layne Simpson, Editor of shooting Times magazine, the wildcat status of the 7mm STW ended in 1996 when it got SAAMI certified and became an officially registered and sanctioned member of the 8 mm Remington Magnum "family" of magnum rifle cartridges. With top handloads pushing a 150 grain bullet at nearly 3,400 feet per second, it is one of the fastest mid-bore rifle cartridges extant and is noted for its extremely flat trajectory. It is outclassed only by the Lazzeroni 7.21 Firebird and Remington's 7mm RUM

[edit] .416 Remington Magnum

The 8 mm Remington Magnum case also has functioned as the parent case for the .416 Remington Magnum, which is a .416" caliber necked up version of the 8 mm Remington Magnum. Unlike the 7 mm STW, the .416 Remington Magnum never had a wildcat status. It was designed by Remington and released directly to the public in 1988.

[edit] Wildcats

Cartridges that are not officially registered with nor sanctioned by C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives) or its American equivalent, SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute) are generally known as wildcats. By blowing out standard factory cases the wildcatter generally hopes to gain extra muzzle velocity by increasing the case capacity of the factory parent cartridge case by a few percent. Practically there can be some muzzle velocity gained by this method, but the measured results between parent cartridges and their 'improved' wildcat offspring is often marginal. Besides changing the shape and internal volume of the parent cartridge case, wildcatters also can change the original caliber. A reason to change the original caliber can be to comply with a minimal permitted caliber or bullet weight for the legal hunting of certain species of game.

Wildcats are not governed by C.I.P. or SAAMI rules so wildcatters can capitalize the achievable high operating pressures. Because the 8 mm Remington Magnum offers an exceptional sturdy, pressure resistant cartridge case that can relatively easily be reloaded with primers, powder and bullets and hence be reused several times it has become quite popular amongst wildcatters. With the 8 mm Remington Magnum as the parent case wildcatters have created 6.35 mm (0.257 in) (.257 STW), 6.5 mm (0.264 in) (6.5 mm STW), .30 caliber (.30–8 mm Remington Magnum, .300 Jarrett), 8 mm caliber (8 mm Jarrett), .338 caliber (.338 Jarrett), 0.358 in caliber (.358 STA) and 9.53 mm (0.375 in) (.375 JRS [John R. Sundra]) variants.

[edit] .358 STA (Shooting Times Alaskan)

Another brainchild of Layne Simpson, the .358 STA is an 8 mm Remington Magnum case necked up to accept .358 Caliber bullets with no other changes. Able to propel a 300 grain bullet at over 2700 feet per second for 4,900 ft./lbs. of energy, the .358 STA is a formidable big game cartridge. It has never emerged as a production cartridge and has had very limited success as a wildcat, overshadowed by the more popular .375 caliber commercial and custom cartridges.



.325 Winchester Short Magnum

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.325 Winchester Short Magnum
WSMandWSSM.jpg
WSM and WSSM family of cartridges. From left to right: .223 WSSM, .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .270 WSM, 7 mm WSM, .300 WSM, .325 WSM.
Type Rifle
Place of origin  United States
Service history
In service Never issued
Production history
Designer Winchester
Designed 2005
Manufacturer Winchester
Produced 2005–present
Specifications
Parent case .300 Winchester Short Magnum
Bullet diameter .323 in (8.2 mm)
Neck diameter .350 in (8.9 mm)
Shoulder diameter .538 in (13.7 mm)
Base diameter .555 in (14.1 mm)
Rim diameter .535 in (13.6 mm)
Case length 2.100 in (53.3 mm)
Overall length 2.860 in (72.6 mm)
Case capacity 83 gr H2O (5.395 cm³)
Rifling twist 1 in 10 in (254 mm)
Primer type Large rifle magnum
Maximum pressure 65,000 psi (450 MPa)
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
180 gr (12 g) Ballistic Silvertip 3,060 ft/s (930 m/s) 3,743 ft·lbf (5,075 J)
200 gr (13 g) AccuBond CT 2,950 ft/s (900 m/s) 3,866 ft·lbf (5,242 J)
220 gr (14 g) Power-Point 2,840 ft/s (870 m/s) 3,941 ft·lbf (5,343 J)
Test barrel length: 24 in (610 mm)
Source(s): Winchester Ammunition

.325 Winchester Short Magnum (also known as .325 WSM) is an 8 mm (.323 in) caliber rebated rim bottlenecked centerfire short magnum cartridge that was introduced in 2005 by Winchester. It is a member of the Winchester Short Magnum family of rifle cartridges.

The .325 Winchester Short Magnum was designed to take on the thick-skinned and heavy-shouldered big game animals found from Alaska to Africa. Combining the velocity of the .300 Winchester Magnum with the knockdown power of the .338 Winchester Magnum, the .325 Winchester Short Magnum offers the power needed to take on big game animals in a lighter short action rifle.[1] Like all .300, 8 mm and .338-caliber magnum cartridges the .325 Winchester Short Magnum cannot be universally used on African game since certain sub-Saharan Africa countries have a 9.53 mm (.375 in) minimum caliber rule for hunting Big Five game.

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[edit] Cartridge dimensions

The .325 Winchester Short Magnum has 5.39 ml (83 grain) H2O cartridge case capacity.

.325 WSM cartridge.svg

.325 Winchester Short Magnum maximum cartridge dimensions. All sizes in millimetres (mm).

Americans would define the shoulder angle at alpha/2 = 35 degrees. The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 254 mm (1 in 10 in), 6 grooves, Ø lands = 8.00 mm, Ø grooves = 8.20 mm, land width = 3.10 mm and the primer type is large rifle magnum.

According to the official C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives) guidelines the Winchester Short Magnum family of rifle cartridges can handle up to 445 MPa (64,542 psi) piezo pressure. In CIP regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum CIP pressure to certify for sale to consumers.

The .325 Winchester Short Magnum is a Delta L problem cartridge, meaning it can present unexpected chambering and/or feeding problems. The Delta L problem article explains this problem in more detail.

The German 8x68mm S cartridge introduced in 1939 is probably the closest ballistic twin of the .325 Winchester Short Magnum. The .325 Winchester Short Magnum is considerably shorter and fatter and has a more radical rebated rim, much steeper shoulder angle and a shorter neck (7.82 mm) than the 8x68mm S. This makes the 8x68mm S case with its 9.11 mm long neck better suited for loading long heavier bullets and due to its sleeker exterior shape bound to cycle more reliably in bolt action rifles in extreme situations. On the other hand the proportions of .325 Winchester Short Magnum promote good internal ballistic efficiency that allows the .325 Winchester Short Magnum to fire shorter lighter bullets at slightly higher muzzle velocities whilst using less propellant than the classically proportioned 8x68mm S.

[edit] 8 mm cartridges compared

Maximum muzzle velocity comparison in % of the probably most proliferated European and American 8 mm rifle cartridges out of 650 mm (25.59 in) long barrels loaded with relatively light to heavy 8 mm bullets to their CIP or SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute) sanctioned maximum pressures.

Bullet weight gram (grain) 8.23 g (127 gr) 9.72 g (150 gr) 11.34 g (175 gr) 12.96 g (200 gr) 14.26 g (220 gr) Case capacity (%)
8x57mm IS (7.92x57mm) 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0
8x64mm S 102.7 102.7 102.8 102.9 102.9 110.3
.325 WSM 108.7 109.1 109.0 109.3 111.1 131.7
8x68mm S 108.4 108.5 108.7 110.5 112.3 136.5
8 mm Rem. Mag. 111.9 112.3 114.5 115.3 116.0 157.1

This comparison is not totally objective since the 8 mm Remington Magnum and .325 Winchester Short Magnum operate at 445 MPa (65,000 psi), the 8x68mm S at 440 MPa (63,817 psi), the 8x64mm S at 405 MPa (58,740 psi) and the 8x57mm IS at 390 MPa (56,564 psi) maximum chamber pressure. Higher chamber pressure results in higher muzzle velocities.


[edit] See also

[edit] References

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2011 at 18:19

nice synopsis, ibd.  yeah, the .325wsm certainly is not an equal to the 8mmremmag.

in a way, i think that's what helped the .300, 7mm and .270 wsm's.  they had a valid comparison to recognizable cartridges     ...    the .300winmag, 7mmremmag and .270wbymag.  folks knew these things and the wsm's could stack up very favorably to them.

then came the .325 and what do ya have.  the much larger 8mmremmag.  no meaningful comparison of equality there.  be like saying the .358norma's the equal to my .358sta.

the 8x68s (a great one in its own right) is indeed a more appropriate cartridge to use for comparison sake, but wager the results would be disappointing to poll the general shooting public and see how many of them even know what the 8x69s is.

more and more, it seems like if you see a .325 comparison, it's being made to the .338winmag and maybe that's more correct.?.?.?.?  who knows.

good stuff, though.

 

k

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2011 at 00:36

sort of got to take a look at the 8x57 loadings used in the comparison.  Most are loaded to old Mauser action standards.  I load the 8x57 and it can be loaded close to the 325.  But the 325 does kick like heck?   But the 325 I shoot is in a light weigh Kimber, and that has a definite effect on recoil.

Personally, I like the 8x57 better than the 325; but the downside is the 8x57 will be on a long action but it feeds better.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobertMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2011 at 10:39

I think it depends on what you want the cartridge for, I choose the 270wsm, because I wanted the reach of the 300wm, without the recoil and because it was something different.  The 270wsm is compared to 270wby, it's not, it's a step between 270 and 270wby.

I never bought into the idea of saving a couple of ounces, by going wsm vs longaction.

As far as 325wsm, I think it would fall neatly between 8mm/06 and 8mag. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2011 at 13:54

Fella's;

When the .325 was introduced, Winchester tried to trumpet that it was the equal to the .338 Winchester magnum on a short action.  It didn't take a rocket scientist (obviously 'cause I'm not one) to do some comparisons between what Winnie published for the .325 & various reloading manuals published for the .338 to determine that somebody in New Haven wuz smokin' dope.

Since I've got a .338, I quickly lost interest, and haven't regained it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2011 at 14:53

Any of that tripe about short fat cartridges equaling the time tested cartridges that have been used for years is just that, tripe. Gun writers, as I have said in the past, are whores to rifle companies and will give glowing testimonies  about a pile of dung, as long as it's shown to them first. Along these lines, let's compare a couple more cartridges. Let's take the .458 win mag and compare it to say, a 105 howitzer. It makes just as much sense as comparing the .375 H&H to the .375 winchester or the .375 ruger. It can't be done because they aren't even in the same class. On recoil, all recoil is relative. Perhaps the making and naming of alphabet cartridges is aimed at cream puff shoulders. I am kind of short, but I have large shoulders. Both of them have been repaired with rotator cuff surgery. I shoot my .300 WinMag, my .30/378/ my .416 Rigby, my .338 Lapua, my .470 double, and my McMillan .50 BMG regularly. I know they have recoil, I expect them to have recoil, and I am not disappointed. Recoil would never steer my thinking. Incidentally, I own several .22 rf's and they too are a joy to shoot. Going to a local range to shoot any of my .30 cals is a trip of endurance. I usually shoot about 200 rounds minimum. Recoil is a sensitive subject with me. Personally I don't mind it. Some do and that's ok too. As far as short fat cartridges go, I believe that they are much a do about nothing. I don't think they are close to legendary or will ever make it. I have always believed that accuracy and terminal energy are what puts supper on the table. Carrying over distance isn't bad either..................................Kingpin

I edited terminal velocity to terminal energy, sorry for the mix up.



Edited by Kingpin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2011 at 16:22

i've never really understood why folks get all worked up about certain cartridges.  new cartridges.  wsm's in this particular case.  the promotion and press surrounding them, for sure.  it can go way over the top.  but that's a people thing, not a cartridge thing.  the cartridges themselves     ...     they're simply options.

i've been working with a howa 1500 .375 ruger for the last couple weeks.  so far, i like the cartridge.  not because it's a .375 H&H (although it's 260 gr. accubond at just over 2900 fps aint to shabby), but because it's a .375 ruger.  it grabbed my interest and got me working with the .375 class when no other cartridge in the class did.

regarding the .325wsm, who knows.  i've zero idea what to expect from this thing.  all i know is of all the short magnum offerings available to this point, this is the one that's interested me the most.  the .300 and 7mm's would have been overshadowed by things already in the safe.  and i'd already screwed around with a .270 that i really didn't want so a .270wsm wasn't desireable.  and so the right rifle at the right price happened to come along and presto.  i'm playing with the 8mm class.  if i can rustle up 2900 fps (+/-) behind a 200 gr. accubond that will print well on target, i'll be satisfied.

as to recoil, my attitude about it has kind of morphed over the years.  any more, i tend to keep it all very simple.  if i want to work with a cartridge who's recoil i find less then appealing     ...      i fix it.  period.

this string's taken on lots of topics.    i like.

 

k



Edited by klallen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2011 at 07:50
I guess it did get crazy. Is there anyone here who has an 8MM Mag? I know Rob does but when last I remember, he was having trouble with it. I don't think he ever finished telling us all the skinny. I seem to emember vaguely that he was swapping barrels and had shortcomings from PacNor. Let's liven this up............Kingpin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2011 at 08:14
A Krieger barrel finally solved my 8mag woes. I then promptly sold it. Anymore, ballistics are at the bottom of the list when choosing a cartridge for a rifle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2011 at 03:34

Originally posted by CB900F CB900F wrote:

When the .325 was introduced, Winchester tried to trumpet that it was the equal to the .338 Winchester magnum on a short action.  It didn't take a rocket scientist (obviously 'cause I'm not one) to do some comparisons between what Winnie published for the .325 & various reloading manuals published for the .338 to determine that somebody in New Haven wuz smokin' dope.

 

  • .325 - 180 bt (.394bc) - 73.0 grs. - 3153 fps - 3972# me
  • .338 - 180 bt (.372bc) - 76.0 grs. - 3281 fps - 4301# me  

 

  • .325 - 200 ab (.450bc) - 69.0 grs. - 2964 fps - 3900# me
  • .338 - 200 ab (.414bc) - 76.0 grs. - 3020 fps - 4049# me

snagged these out of my latest nosler.  they're the bullets i'll be using in the .325 so figured that'd be the data i'll gleen from.  these are just straight, top end, printed loads.  kinda interesting that they did their load development on a 26" wiseman for the .325 wsm and a 24" wiseman for the .338 win mag.  you'd think the longer barrel would help the .338 much more then it would the .325.?.?.?.?  strange how they choose some of the development components that they do.

anyway, i'm in complete agreement with cb.  the .325 is not a .338.  if real life mimics printed data, you can see this.  however, it must be said, if i went hunting with cb and we were after game he felt required a .338 win mag, i'd feel just as comfortable hunting that same game (and expect similar, if not the same, results) using a .325 wsm.

course, there's always that arguement with the .338 that you can push it into an area the .325 can not go by using 250 gr. bullets.  probably a valid arguement.  trying to use real heavy bullets in a .325 wsm would only less the powder capacity by the depth you'd have to seat them to still function in a short action magazine.  but i'd counter, if you needed a 250 gr. in a .338 win mag, i'd need my .358 sta and it's 280 gr. bullet.  lol.  there's benefits to having several things in the safe.

later, all

k



Edited by klallen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2011 at 12:07

Klallen;

When I finally got a load developed for my .338WM, it was this:  Win brass, CCI lg rifle magnum primer, 75.5 grs of RL19 and a Hornady 225 grain spire point, BC at .397, part #3320.  It ran 2870 fps & gave me excellent accuracy for years.  The 6th edition of Hornady, book 2, gives me a muzzle energy figure right at 4000 ft lbs.

All of a sudden it went overpressure & I'm still trying to get that situation figured out & under control.  Unfortunately, it occurred more than once when trying to get a handle on the solution.  So, it wasn't an isolated event, which wouldn't matter if it was, once is one too many times.

But, back to the point, I didn't figure any of the newer .338 calliber offerings could come close to what was available with the Winchester magnum.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2011 at 12:57

hi, cb.

if i can get that velocity, and some accuracy, behind these 200 accubonds, i'll be thrilled.  should be able to reach out a little bit and touch something with that .450 bc, too.

hope you get your pressure issues figured out.  hunting season's just around the corner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CB900F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2011 at 14:04

Klallen;

Not to worry, the .338 won't be in the field this year, but I've got other arrows in the quiver.

900F

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d4570 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 16:59
Dang this is an old post.
 I ran across it on a Google search.
I read every word too...
I vote for the 8mm Rem Mag.ClapBig smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 17:57
The WSM have some merit, but alot of it is marketing. How close to the original do you need to be to justify even having it? All the hype was about the short action weight savings, less recoil. My question is, how much? How much weight are you really saving to ditch your old 300Win mag and buy a brand new 300WSM? And how much less recoil, honestly with all things being equal, the laws of physics are pretty clear, 180gr bullet at 2900fps, produces X amount of reactionary force, doesn't matter if it's in a short fat case or a long belted case. If there is a difference I would suspect it is hardly noticeable to Joe average, my guess would be you would need a lab and some expensive test equipment to tell the difference. In the case of the 325/8mmRM the original is substantially bigger. The 8mm Mag is based on the magnum length action, 300/375H&H/300Wby. The others, 270Wby, 7mmRM/7mmWby/300Win mag are a standard long action length case. This would mean the 270, 7mm and 300WSM are closer in case capacity to the originals. I have held off from the Short magnum craze, I do think they are great performing rounds, but I'm not buying the hype the manufacturers pushed that they are so much better than the originals. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 07:20
Well, interesting because it was a 9 year old post.  some positive talk on the WSM series of cartridges.

With 100% hindsight, the WSMs are dead.  didn't seem to offer much to shooters.  But the promoter made millions on license to Winchester and others.

Regarding recoil, I always laughed as they said, higher velocity, reduced recoil and in a lighter short action.   Just can't happen on this planet.

I still reload for my neuphew's 325 WSM.  He is 42 but finds the recoil 'too much'.  So I load it to 8x57 velocities, and he loves it. 

We all know that powder capacity is a "diminishing returns" event. 10% powder increase  gives you a 4% velocity increase.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 07:38
It does seem the WSM have fizzled out Bear. I am not saying they didn't get the job done, but are they enough better to buy a new rifle? Now for us gun nuts, it doesn't take much to have the urge to buy a new rifle, but for the average hunter that doesn't buy into all the hype...I have heard/read brass didn't last all that long and the sharp shoulder angle made for troublesome feeding...again no first hand knowledge just reading. But the feeding issue would make sense, i.e. Ackley Improved shoulder angle. It seems the shooting world is driven on the "next best thing" mentality. Which is fine, otherwise we'd all still be shooting a 30-30. But the marketing gets a bit out of hand if you stop and think about it for a minute...how can you kill a deer deader than dead??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 07:58
30-30 still a great round.  

Winchester never was good at two things,  design and marketing.....maybe that is why it is out of business.  Their bigest mistake was trying to market a series of WSM cartridges.  The sizzle was spread between too many newbies. 

 the wise marketing would have been to just bring out the 270 WSM, as there is only one cartridge in that diameter to compete against.  the 270 Win  is about 100 years old, they could have sold agaainst that one.
“ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MapleHill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 09:51
Agree on all accounts. I love the 30-30. And the WSM always seemed to stump me. 270, 7mm and 300 then 325 all right about the same time. The 270 and 325 made the most sense. Not alot of players in the 270 or 8mm field. There seems to be a trillion 7mm and 308 choices out there. Now it seems the 6.5 is all the rage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsgbearpaws1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 13:25
So to set this straight. 8mm good, even though it only works in the longest actions made and nobody has ever heard of it. WSM's bad, even though they fit in any action and do the exact same thing as the bigger vs's, but nobody feels the need for that. Did I get that right?

...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt!
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