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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2003 at 12:29

Kingpin - Looks like we share quite a few similar opinions and experiences.

For example, I used to work with the FBI, for quite a number of years, on a fairly regular basis.  This included the FBI offices in Montana, Idaho and Washington.  Without exception I found them to be good folks.

Now, as to specifics, just for the sake of discussion, and not to argue:

1) Clearly, research shows that some calibers and bullets are more effective, when it comes to killing people, than others.  More effective being the two key words.  For example:  The odds of being incapacitated or killed, by one shot to the torso, where the vast majority of shooting victims are shot, with a 60 grain Winchester Silver Tip JHP in 32 ACP caliber, according to the Marshall data, which is available via the internet, is 66 percent.  The odds of being incapacitated or killed with a 125 grain Remington JHP in 357 magnum caliber is, according to the same source, 96 percent.  Big difference.  Can either bullet kill you?  Of course.  Does bullet placement matter?  Of course.  Should we take a look at what happens when someone is shot only once?  Why not, maybe one bullet is all we can get into someone, plus, if we can get more than one bullet into them, that may up the odds even more in our favor.  Should we take a look at what happens when a person is shot in the torso?  Why not, that is where most people, who are incapacitated or killed, according to statistics, get shot.  I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything here.  I just want folks to be informed.  Me, I've owned both 32 ACP and 357 magnum handguns.  I've also carried, shot and tested both calibers with the loads described.  Different situations often call for different armament.  Key point:  Both of us, you and I, are making informed choices, even though those choice are being based on different criteria and preferences, but, most important, neither of us is trying to tell someone else what they should be carrying in their particular life situations.  Why is that important?  Bottom line, for me, I don't want to have to ever look into someone's eyes and say:  I'm sorry, I picked the wrong gun, cartridge or load and that choice, that I made, contributed to your loved one's death.  Their life.  Their choice. 

2) Hydra shok bullets, as I understand the research, were specifically designed to expand in humans at sub sonic speeds of somewhere around 1100 feet per second or less.  Isn't this factually true?

3) As to JHP bullets "filling up" with stuff, isn't that what they are supposed to do so as to open up and expand?  Do JHP's sometimes fail to expand?  Sure.  Sooner or later most designs fail.  Some are better than others.  Key question:  Do you want the performance that a JHP is designed to give?  For me, the answer is yes and I don't know how else I could get it without using JHP bullets.  Personally, I've had bad luck with LRN bullets, when shooting into living things, such as a black bear, and, to me, when shooting into human beings, the unintended consequences of a through and through shot are too great for me to be comfortable with FMJ bullets.  I guess there are other alternatives, but, so far, for me, personally, I'm sticking with JHP handgun bullets or a shotgun with either 00 buck or number 4 shot for self defense.

4) In the Marshall data, for example, every bullet, regardless of caliber, with a ranking in the 90th percentile is a JHP.  This data, again, is not universally accepted and has lots of critics.  Nonetheless, the percentages are based on what happens when one bullet,  and only one bullet, hits a human torso and stops an attack by incapacitating or killing the attacker.  Marshall calls this a one shot stop.  The results that he compiles and then writes about come from law enforcement after action shooting incident reports and medical reports including autopsies.  Dr Fackler is his chief critic and if you read Marshall you should also read Fackler.

I hope this post stimulates some good positive and friendly discussion.  I've also written, in this same topic area, a post on SELF DEFENSE ISSUES and, over in the Shotgun topic area, a post on SELF DEFENSE AND SHOTGUNS.  Self defense is very important and well worth some polite discussion.

Further, I'd like to suggest some ground rules for this discussion, such as: 

1) Our goal is to help folks make informed self defense choices through positive and, hopefully, meaningful discussion. 

2) There is no one choice that works best for everybody. 

3) At the end of the discussion:  You choose what  you want.  I choose what I want.  Your life = your choice.  My life = my choice.  Period. 

CJ

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2003 at 14:21

Fella's;

One thing I've noticed that comes up again & again, is the chemical state of the person being shot.  In other words, anecdotal accounts of somebody being harder to stop because of their drugged up state.  Nowhere in E&M or Fackler do I see this issue addressed.  Now, I admit that I don't follow either camp closely, so if it is covered I might very well have missed it.  But, if it isn't covered, do either of you know why?  Or if you don't know, would you care to speculate?

900F

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2003 at 11:51
CB, while it's a fact that druggies are usually so high that they need to contact the closest air traffic controller just to sit down, their altered mind doesn't allow them (for the most part) to feel pain like a sober or unstoned person. (Is "unstoned" a real word?) I have heard a lot of first hand accounts from the local Five-0 about shooting a dope head, and all of them gruesome. Again it was all hearsay so I can't confirm it. What I will confirm is, that anyone, even a dopey, catching a bullet in the brain pan will hit the ground like a sack of shit. The same goes for an instant incapacition shot. Large boney structures and vertabra are all prime examples of instant incapacitation. Now, on a humerous note, I did see, first hand, a drunk guy beat the living hell out of six cops, and not until three more show up was he subdued. I believe that he just got tired and gave up. The pepper gas really pissed him off. That's an important point to remember. Use pepper on the steak, not on someone mad.

Another thing that you can forget, is knock down power. I don't believe that I have to elaborate on that.

Then there's the belief that whenever anyone gets shot, they fly away from the shooter like a grenade went off right beside them. It just don't happen. People in this country and other well developed countries all watch TV and know when you get shot that you must fall down and give up, but you have to co through a bunch of contortions first. Nerves may make you gyrate when hit, but bullets don't. A good example of this is all of the troopers in Somalia giving the M-16 bad press because a lot of them said that they had to shoot some of those crazies three or four times to knock them down. Let's analyze this for a moment.

First, there aren't that many TV's in Somalia.

Second, these wretches didn't know how to act when they got shot because they haven't seen the first Die Hard movie, much the latest jillion remakes.

Third, when a 5.56 MM projo smacks flesh, the wounds are very lethal and massive. In a lot of cases death is caused by massive hemorrhage caused by the high velocity bullet upsetting and fragmenting. The troopers were so pumped up that they really didn't see anyone falling and dying as they shot.

Fourth, the battle there consisted of fighting in streets that were walled on both sides of the streets. I was told by some of them that it was like a video game, with targets running by and some stopping to shoot. The boogers were running into view, shooting, and ducking behing breaks built in the walls for pedestrians. They may have been shot, the troopers didn't have many chances to check out who they shot.

Fifth, it may sound racist, but I assure you that it's not intended to be, and that is, all of the boogers were thin, underfed, and that would make them seem to all look alike. Thus, when a trooper shot someone, he thought that he didn't hit him hard enough to stop him when in reality, he was shooting a thin, gaunt, man who kind of resembled the last one of them that he engaged. It was a fight, our guys didn't have time to look for ID cards, they were just trying to get out of a bad situation

I got these facts from the actual accounts of some of the guys who were there and I know them personally. The movie wasn't bad, but the guys told me that it didn't begin to show how much it really sucked. I also read the book. It sold lots of copies,and that's what the author was going for. He had a lot of facts, but I believe that there's a lot of things that were embellished

CJ brought up Dr Fackler. He's a friend of mine, and he just doesn't bullshit. I remember his telling a story about a stand-off situation where a coroner was called. He said that he radioed that he was enroute, as it was just a short distance from the store that he was in. While driving to the scene, he got a call, cancelling the coroner. He just had to see the guy that had been resurrected. When he arrived on scene, and walked to the house, he noticed a cop sitting on the curb with his head in his hands. The cops in the house told him that the guy was the one on the curb, so he went to talk to him. The cop told him that they decided to go into the house using a dynamic entry. They smashed the door, and the guy on the curb was the first one in, He saw the perp pointing a .22 cal pistol at him and the perp fired. The cop on the curb just knew that the perp had killed him and dropped like a wet feedsack. The perp immediatly dropped his gun and no more shots were fired. That's when they called the coroner. Within minutes of the incident, the cop on the curb started coming around and it was discovered that he was untouched. He told Fackler, "When I saw him pointing that gun and it fired, I knew that I was dead." This is a good point for mind over matter, his body just shut down. I believe the curb cop works in a 7-11 now. the lesson to be learned here, is, from Yogi Berra(sp) who said, "It ain't over 'till it's over." Self defense isn't just a brawl anymore. Mindset should dictate that whenever you defend yourself, do it like you intend to kill the threat, make it go away, or hospitalize it for a long time. No one just fistfights anymore............Kingpin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2003 at 13:07

Kingpin makes some excellent points about what transpired in Somalia. 

Many of us know folks who were there.

As I recall, one of the problems was that the majority of troops were issued the green tip 223 ammunition designed to penetrate light armor.  Result:  On people, especially emaciated people, more often than not, through and through shots.

A few Delta guys brought in 308's and although I don't know what ammo they were firing, had better luck with the one shot one kill goal.

Bottom line:  Mogadishu was, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, an old pal of mine from days gone by, as stated in, I think, Heartbreak Ridge, a movie:  One big cluster----, period and end of story.

As to Fackler, I've never met him but he sure writes like a man who is not only very bright but well informed.  As I wrote in another post today, be nice if Fackler and Marshall could put their differences aside and work together.  Marshall has some great information gathering contacts, as a former law enforcement officer, and Fackler would be great at interpreting that information.  Much better, in my opinion, than Marshall.  Why?  Marshall lacks the scientific, including math, background that Fackler has.  Fackler earned a MD degree.  Marshall has a master's degree and no real background in science or math, especially statistics.

The drug stuff that 900F asked us to comment on, I had a lot to say so I wrote it in another post in this same Handgun forum.  Reason:  We are not really talking so much now about the 40 S&W as we were earlier in this thread.  Me, when I go back to try to find something, I always seem to find it sooner if it is the name of a posted topic as opposed to a part of a posted topic that may or may not have a relevant, to me, topic name attached to it that I can remember.

CJ

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2003 at 15:14
CJ, the green tip ammo with the steel penatrator is designed for poking holes in body armor. For the most part, it still acts like 55 gr ball when something starts applying the brakes suddenly. The only difference is, that the penetrator still remains intact. Still plenty of frag when it upsets. I recall a surgeon stating that anyone in Desert storm that got shot, had an average of 9 perforations. He never said which side, so I am assuming that he also operated on Iraqi's in addition to the good guys............Kingpin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2003 at 17:25
Does anyone make a .40 in a 1911 configuration?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2003 at 08:34

Kingpin - Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

CJ

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2003 at 10:40

Waksupi--

Springfield Armory lists a 1911A1 variant in 40 S&W, and Browning makes a Hi-Power variant in this caliber as well. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2003 at 11:34
Waksupi, I build them too. To date, I have never had a return or a complaint.............Kingpin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2003 at 13:24

Waksupi;

I've seen em' in the Kimber catalogue.  I've also been told not to hold your breath till you see one for real.

900F

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