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Topic Closed.40 knock down power

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: .40 knock down power
    Posted: 20 July 2003 at 13:31
Hey, which is better the .40 s&w, or is a 9mm just fine? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2003 at 13:59

Spot;

There are just about as many opinions on this one (or throw in the .45ACP too if you want to get people really riled up) as there are shooters.

My personal choice is the .40.  I'm carrying an H&K USP compact in .40 in varient 2 with ambi added.  I use the Winchester 180gr SXT.  This comes to just about exactly what the FBI tests concluded was the best combination of bore/weight/velocity back in the post-Miami tests.  That's when the Feds were carrying 9's & got the crap shot outta themselves because they couldn't put down the bad guys fast enough.

To be fair, the self defense ammo is by far superior now than in the late '80's.  All of it is better now.  So as far as I can tell, the difference margins would remain about the same.  The .40 has an excellent reputation in the real world for being able to end a fight.  The 9's may be a little easier to conceal.  Pay your nickle & take your choice.  Any of them is so much better than nothing that it makes no difference, if you see what I mean.

900F

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2003 at 14:08
Spot shooter,

Most think that the 40 S&W is better than the 9mm me included. I got the following from the Winchester ammo site:
40 S&W 180gr JHP Velocity-1010fps, Energy-408 foot pounds

9mm 147 gr JHP Velocity-990fps, Energy-320 foot pounds

Both are at the muzzle, and are the heaviest bullet offered.

When it comes to handgun ammo I think the bigger the chunk of lead, the better. 40's better than a 9 but a 45 is better than a 40. I carry a 40 for duty only because a 45 isn't one of my choices.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2003 at 15:11

"which is better the .40 s&w, or is a 9mm just fine?"

Was fiddling with the same question a while back.  Found that there are as many supporters for the 9 as there were for the 40.  Just depended on who you chatted with at the time.

Fought with it for a year or so and then the last gun show up here settled things for me real nicely.  Picked up a Sig 2340.  Now, when I have the hankering I've got either the 40 S&W or the .357 Sig at my disposal.  Neat way to cover the .400 and .355 caliber classes in one tidy little package.  I love it when things work out that way    .  >>  klallen

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2003 at 01:24

Knock down power? No such animal exists, in a handgun. Muzzle energy and other considerations like that are a very rough measure, at best. My own personal taste leans toward a good JHP in .45ACP as a defense load. ( I currently carry Pro-Loads'  +P185 JHP), but I never felt unarmed with a 9x19 carrying Corbon's +p 115 gr JHP.

The various 147 gr 9mm JHPs have a pretty dismal performance record in the real world. I believe a smaller diameter bullet needs all the speed it can get. At a muzzle velocity of 990 FPS, you essentially have a rimless .38 Special. Why bother?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2003 at 12:33

Yup,

   I'm thinkin the 40 is the way to go, you can't make up fer bullet mass.

Spot

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2003 at 16:23

If you are serious about this question, Evan Marshall has compiled some data that might be of interest to you.  Of course, if you are going to study Marshall, you should also study his chief critic, Dr Fackler.  Both are on the internet.

To be brief, Marshall has developed a one shot stop ratings percentage based on law enforcement after action shooting reports and medical records/autopsies, both relate to humans who have been shot, only in the torso, and no more than once, by a handgun bullet:

1) The highest rated 9mm load is a 115 grain Federal JHP +P+ at 91 percent.

2) The highest rated 40 S&W load is a 165 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP at 94 percent.

3) The highest rated calibers are a tie between the 357 magnum and 45 ACP, both at 96 percent.  The top rated 357 magnum is a tie between the 125 grain Federal JHP and the 125 grain Remington JHP.  The top rated 45 ACP is a tie between the 230 grain Federal Hydra Shok JHP, 185 grain Remington JHP +P and the 185 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP.

Basically, as I see it, any 90th percentile rated caliber is well worth carrying as a primary self defense handgun.  Nonetheless, in a dangerous situation, I prefer a 45 ACP, 357 magnum or 40 S&W to a 9mm.  I've owned and tested all of these calibers and what I'm giving  you now is my personal opinion as opposed to that of Marshall or Fackler.

Best advice I can give you:

1) Buy what fits your hand.  We are all different.

2) Buy what you enjoy shooting most for the more you like it the more you are probably going to shoot it and that's the best way I know to become a decent handgun shot, by shooting.  So:  Practice.  Practice.  Practice.

CJ

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2003 at 17:22

Can't argue with what CJ said above. Use the pistol that fits your hand the best, in the cartridge that you feel the most comfortable with. For me, I'd feel equally good about a BHP in 9mm with some good loads or a Glock Model 22 or 27 in .40 S&W with a good 180 grain JHP.

Regards, Marcus.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2003 at 00:24

NL, CJ,

   That's what started all of this, I'm a wheelgun man by birth and I've only felt one or two pistols that fit my hand well.  However, I don't like the lever setup's they have.  First one is the baby eagle, safety is on the slide, should be on the base.  The gun is a knock off of the CZ75 that has the safety on the base, however the safety on the CZ doesn't require any energy at all to throw.  So for me it's a no-no.  I haven't spend that much time looking into pistols, but i do love the slide release and safety on the HK USP.  For now I've decided to put off buying a pistol, but I'd still like to find the gun I would buy.  I think your right about the gun fitting your hand, if it doesn't you'll never shoot it well. 

Thanks!

Spot

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2003 at 08:44

Although I am new herebouts, I would like to post right into this one.

Where preformance matters, the .40 has it all over most 9mm loads, I am a fan of revolvers, I'd have my Model 13 S&W with me everywhere if life allowed, however as pure space, wardrobe restraints and real life must intrude, I recently upgraded from 9mm to 40 S&W in the form of the Kahr K 40 and haven't looked back.

As to saftey issues....well, I have not heard many people call a well-tuned revolver unsafe, a good DAO auto suits me just as well.

However, whatever firearm one chooses is significantly better than none at all, so...exercise your right to carry concealed should you have it, and pick the biggest bloody gun you can deal with

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2003 at 14:40

Spot;

If the only H&K you handled was the USP, also make sure to get your hands on a USPc.  The compact USP's also come in two versions, the 9 & 40 and the .45, which is on it's own frame. 

If you haven't heard, H&K is coming out with a new pistol that's, so far, called the 2000, and it's totally ambi.  The slide stop & operating levers are on both sides of the gun.  The magazine release is also ambi as always.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2003 at 16:14

900F,

    Not planning on gettin one soon, but if I ever get a second pistol to accompany my Taurus 41 Mag, it'd be that compact USP.  Can't beleive the price though $750!  Ouch, guess you get what you pay for though.

Spot

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2003 at 01:33

YEAH H&K, they DO know we lefties are out there!!!  Next step is Ruger

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2003 at 01:34

O wait, you can just spend your money on the Ruger P 97! That is fairly ambi. I am not sure about hte mag release though. I havent seen the pistol for a while. Get the DAO one. that is one sweet handgun.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2003 at 14:44

NH;

There are a number of things Ruger needs to work on with the P-series pistols in my opinion.  The single biggest problem I have with them is the slide-mounted operating lever.  It's ergonomically incorrect.  Think, on the draw, the thumb is coming down & forward to achieve grip.  In order to go from safe to fire, the Ruger, Smith, Beretta, and most other slide mounted operating levers require an up movement.  None of the slide safety guns mentioned can be carried in condition 1.  Then there is the Ruger trigger, one of the kindest things I can say is; it's less than state of the art. 

I've experienced two of the Ruger P-series, an original P85 and a P90.  I've not shot one of the DAO versions.

900F

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2003 at 15:32

I have not shot one with a safety. I just have only had experience with the DAO and i really like it. The gun handles nicely too. The first trigger pull is tough, but isnt it on all pistols with the hammer not pulled back.

NH_Hunter



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2003 at 20:37

No, some pistols do not work with the traditional single action first and double action second hammer concept.  Example:  the Kahr mentioned by Parmatus.  If you go to their web site, you will see how they do it and be able to read quite a few commentaries on their design.  Each trigger pull is the same, at least with the four Kahr handguns that I have owned.  One in 9mm and three in 40 S&W caliber.  Without exception, all were fairly long but smooth pulls.  Personally, I find these handguns very accommodating for concealed carry and are fun, for me, to shoot.

My best 3 shot groups, with my Kahr's, are:

1) 3/16 of an inch at 6 feet, standing, off hand, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

2) 5/16 of an inch at 21 feet, standing, off hand, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

3) 6/16 of an inch at 75 feet, off a bench, using an Outer's Pistol rest, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

4) 8 and 6/16 of an inch at 100 yards, off a bench, using an Outer's Pistol rest, with my 9mm Kahr MK9.

5) 6 and 8/16 of an inch at 150 yards, standing, off hand, two hand grip, with my 40 S&W Kahr K40.

To date, I've owned and tested one MK9 (with night sights), one MK40 (now traded away) and two K40's (one with night sights and one without).

As to ammunition, I like both the 155 grain Federal Hydra Shok JHP and the 165 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP.  They are ranked, by Marshall, at 93 and 94 percent, respectively, for one shot stops with a torso hit.

If anyone is interested in the fps and fpe I get with this ammunition, in my Kahr's, please ask and I'll post it.

One of my fatal flaws, that sometimes wears me out, is giving too much information.  More than folks care to read.  It's become a habit that I'm trying to break.

CJ

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2003 at 16:15
CJ, looks like you stole the show, AND my notes.....LOL. Good post. In reality, it has been discovered a long time ago that calibers don't matter, it's all bullet placement. The FBI wrote a neat paper a few years back. In it, it states that the .22 LR is as deadly as anything on the market. They don't mean that we should all carry .22's though. A number or shootings have used the .32 auto. We all know that this also isn't an ideal self defense cartridge, but in these cases it would seem to have been perfect. As far as sheer power on 20% ballistic gelatin with femurs in them, the first place prize goes to the .357 Mag loaded with silvertips. According to my friends in the FBI, this package is as lethal as it gets, surpassing even the .44 Mag. Practice always takes the worry out of being close. Some time back, statistics showed that most gunfights took 1.2 rounds on average to stop the threat, at a distance of twelve feet or less. I have several personal favorites as my carry guns. Depending on the weather or social situation, I have been known to carry a P-226 SIG 9MM, a Colt's 1911 in .45 ACP that I customized for this purpose, a 4" S&W model 65 in .357, and a S&W model 60 in .38 special. There have been times, again depending on the social situation that I knew I was going to be in, carried two of the above. As I said, practice helps a lot, and caliber choice is less important because you should carry what you can handle the best, and hit the target with. There are also times when over penatration is a concern. Here is where ammo choice comes into play. I don't place a lot of store in hollow point handgun bullets, because depending on the weather, clothing comes into consideration. Many hollow point bullets have a tendency to cut heavy clothing and turn the bullet into what amounts to a FMJ bullet. In order for hollow point bullets to do what they are supposed to do everytime, 1800 fps is the magic number. Glaser bullets (the ones with shot and resin in a jacket) have proved largely inneffective against a lot of things. I have seen the after effects of Federal Hydro-Shocks on thick clothing, like one would wear in cold weather. They were highly disappointing in a number of cases like these. I usually stoke my .357 with silvertips, my 9MM and .45 with FMJ's and my .38 with soft lead round nose bullets. Again, I can't stress enough that practice is most important. All the calibers that I mentioned are lethal, but shot placement is more important than any caliber selection. Lots of folks are duped into believing in magical bullets and that's what manufacturers depend on. For myself, I only use facts that are printed by reputable laboratories and what I know personally to be true. I shoot a lot, on a daily basis, conduct tests and report results. I don't care much for any of the local gun magazines "bullet of the month" offering, with promises of more penatration, and nonsensical antics within the target. I have however, before I learned more, and was gainfully employed in the field, been a magic bullet chaser..................Kingpin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2003 at 01:29

I agree somewhat...shot placement is everything. However, I cannot see carrying FMJ in 9x19 .45 ACP, maybe. Yes, heavy clothing has been shown to plug the HP and cause the bullet to behave like FMJ, but it doesn't happen 100% of the time. I want every percentage point I can get on my side. Yes, it MIGHT not expand, but depending on the circumstances, it might. FMJ will never expand. Period.

Living in South Texas, I don't have to worry much about somebody wearing heavy clothing. Just like choosing your hunting ammunition for certain game, we should chose our defense loads for our local conditions.

I also have a hard time accepting the 1800FPS as a threshold for effective expansion. Twenty years ago, that was very likely true. I just don't see it with today's bullets. In my admitedly limited animal testing, I get expansion in most JHP bullets at about 900 to 950 FPS...lead SWC HP in .38 special at 750 to 800.

What we do agree on is there is definately no "magic bullet". There are just way too many variables to be dogmatic.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2003 at 11:06
NH, the biggest draws for repairs to my gunsmithing service are the Ruger P series pistols. I like the looks of them, but as far as defending myself with one will only say that any P series Ruger is better than a sharp stick. They ARE heavy enough to make a good club when it leaves you cold, but I wouldn't take one to a dog fight if it was defending champion. I will say on Rugers behalf that they do stand by their product in the way of prompt parts delivery (and I order a lot of parts from them for that paperweight) but a perp might not want to wait for you to get parts so you can shoot it out with him. That being said, they are inexpensive though. I had a customer ask me to order him one for self defense. I immediately invited his attention to the SIG line of pistols. He told me that they were too expensive, and I countered with, if you're buying it for self defense, just how much is your cheap ass worth. To make a long story short, I sold him a SIG that very night. No one who is serious about self defense buys a P series Ruger. That job predominantly belongs to the 1911 (not that chinese junk) SIG Sauer, and H&K, trailing closely are any S&W revolver over .32 cal. As far as competitions go, I have never seen a P series Ruger in any IPSC or IDPA match. That's not to say that there aren't any, just to say that they aren't there for long, as soon as the owner see's what he's competing against he dumps it in favor of the high priced spread.........Kingpin
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