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300 WSM vs. 300 Win. Mag.

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TasunkaWitko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasunkaWitko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 14:35
spot and kp -

i moved this discussion into the archives because brad diid a hell of a good documenting his research in his decision on what to buy. i'd appreciate it if the discussion was kept on an "archives" level.

there are a lot of good points here, on both sides of the discussion, but there are also a few things which are dragging it down. in any of the other rooms, i wouldn't mind, but in the archives, i'd like things to stay civilized, alright?


spot, either back up your #4 claim or retract it, ok?

kp, just like you, i prefer traditional, historic and classy over new-fangled, hyped-up and flashy. but if someone else likes new-fangled, they should be able to enjoy it without and heckling, ok?

i'm not just referring to you two, but your posts do make the best example.

thanks, and much appreciated.
TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 14:46
No arguement from me Tash, I just can't figure out why the answer has eluded us. I think I mentioned before that whatever caliber a guy wanted to use was fine, just as long as he wasn't using bovine scatological evidence to drive home a point that's not there. I just asked him to substantiate something is all...................Kingpin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 15:12

HUH...

    Let's just put it this way.

  Don't take stock tips from anyone.. or cartridge recommendations either.

   ON the other hand if some one's got experience with both and has an opinion you might learn something from it.  But then again... the tips thing.

Spot

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2005 at 00:36

Good Morning Klallen,

Greatness like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  What one guy thinks is great FOR HIS PURPOSES might be poor for others.  Lots of folks think the 375 H&H is great, but IMHO it makes a poor deer cartridge.

If all you hunt is elk, the 300 mag might be great for you.  When enough shooters adopt a cartridge and individually consider it "great", you might say that the cartridge has a reputation for greatness.  Sort of like saying Monet is thought of as a great artist; while not many people talk of the paintings of Harry Sigafoo.  Some people believe a cartridge is measured by the number of folks that buy rifles for it and shoot them for years.  The 30-30 is usually considered great by most people because of its endurance.  Personally I like its performance on deer in 150 yard situations, and the lever guns that it is chambered for. 

Regarding the 300 WSM, some day it might be considered “great” but for now it is just another of many factory released new cartridges that has yet to prove anything, just hype. So far.  As shooters buy them and shoot them, it MAY prove to be great.  Early indications by knowledgeable shooters are that it doesn’t do anything new that other cartridges haven’t been doing for years.  I did outline some of it’s pluses in my earlier post.  But from a terminal end it is a yawner. 

Lots of cartridges are touted as “Great” when introduced and are actually remembered as duds; the 256 Win, 5 mm RF, and the 284 Win come quickly to mind.  Presently the 204 Ruger is being hailed as a great shell….time will tell.

Whether I think the 300 mag is great doesn’t matter; in the larger shooting fraternity many others do.  And it is a cartridge that has proven itself.  Is it better than the 20-338 or 300 H&H AI?  Probably not.

Does the 300 WSM deserve a chance with shooters, positively?  Most shooters love new stuff and the opportunity to buy it or dream of buying it.  Time will tell if it is great.  Right now it is just more new fun stuff.

My concern is not with the WSMs.  I just wish the manufactures would realize that they are using the base case to duplicate what is already available to shooters.  They need to get there ass in gear and realize that the true value is to get large diameter bullets into those WSM cases.  There is a good market for a 35 WSM, 375 WSM, 416 WSM, 45 WSM, 470 WSM (50 WSM???).  Why?? Because no one makes short action hunting bolt guns in these calibers.  The lever guys have all the good calibers and most are rimmed (they don’t work well in modern bolt rifles) 444, 375 W, 38-55, 45-70, 348.  We bolt guys would love to have these ballistics in a bolt rifle.

BEAR

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2005 at 03:37

Howdy BEAR  >>  By saying the .300 WSM is a "yawner", you're also saying the .300 WinMag is a yawner.  Is this your stance?

I guess I just don't see "greatness" as something earned over time.  In my book, that is popularity.  And popularity is a far cry from a valid indicator of "greatness".  Way to much following of the lead sheep for it to be valid.  Much more valid, in my mind, is simple performance supplied.  The .300 WinMag is great because of this.  Not because it's been around since the late 50's.  In my mind, it is just as great today as it was in 1990, 1975 and 1960.  It didn't just morph into "greatness".  It had it from the get go.  I guess this is where I'm at with the WSM.  By essentially duplicating WinMag performance and doing it accurately, it is a great round, based on the performance it provides.  What it has potential of is becoming a "popular" round in time, but it's already supplying the performance associated with "greatness".  Further, I don't see why it needs to provide "more" then the WinMag to earn the same label.  As far as it's popularity goes, whether it will be popular in 2040 has little bearing on it's greatness today.  Selling statistics just can't define greatness.  To much nonsense.  The .30-30 and .30-06 are prime examples.  The "everyone's got one" mentality drives the thinking that these are great cartridges, but when we get to the nuts and bolts of it all (performance), the .30-06 is the very definition of the "average" cartridge you mentioned in an earlier post, and the .30-30, well, it's somewhere far below that.  Useful, indeed, but on the performance scale, we both know where they stack up.  Wonderful examples of the opposite effect being the .264 WinMag and 8mm RemMag.  These are both "great" cartridges, based on performance #.  Both easy and cheap to reload for.  Extremely accurate.  Both offering an abundance of performance for their various big game uses.  Both at the top of the heap, performance wise, in their respective caliber classes.  In a word     ...     GREAT!  Yet where are they?  The 8mm's a ghost and few know of the .264.  And why is that?  Again, folks are slow on the uptake.  Most excuses I've heard point to the fact that we, in general, have a hard time warming up to metric designations (there's a real bomb-shell of an escuse    ) and all the bad press the .264 got in the beginning haunts it today.  Reasons that show the overall intellegence, or lack thereof, of the buying public, but more accurately defines the lack of popularity of the rounds, but does nothing to deminish their greatness.  This is what happens when we let the general public define greatness by sales numbers.  Average and below average performing cartridges flourish.  Above average cartridges get left behind.  That's why I see popularity (sales) as a poor, poor indicator of greatness.  It can't be accurate when more times then not, JohnQ Public couldn't care less about what he's shooting, just as long as it's the same as what the sheep to the left and the sheep to the right are shooting, and that they, in turn, are shooting the same as the lead sheep.  Just a poor indicator.  So, I would have no trouble calling the .300 WSM a great cartridge because of the WinMagish performance it provides long before I'd call the .30-06 a great cartridge simply because it's been around since 1906 and every tom dick and harry has one.  Chat with ya later.  >>  klallen

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The_Mountaineer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2005 at 02:19

Holy cow

Guess I missed quite a bit here in the past two days!

The whole reason I compiled this stuff was to give me a sense of which is the "better" choice for me.  As I mentioned, the 300 Win. Mag. seemed to be the right one in the final analysis.  

TJ pointed out that the 200 grain bullets aren't current factory fodder or as common in the reloading world for the 300 WSM as for the 300 Win. Mag.  That was a factor in versatility for me.

Ironically, one of the biggest things I discovered was the "light" rifle marketing of the 300 WSM.  Not that big of a difference and in some cases no difference in advertised weight than that of the 300 Win. Mag.   

I'll tell you that for sure some manufacturers do a good job with their websites and others do a piss poor job with their websites for sure.

I'm glad that Ron found it archive material. That wasn't my intent but rather just share what I had to find out for myself instead of you folks having to re-invent the wheel and duplicate my "study"  That's taken up a bulk of my free time here lately as the weather hasn't been great, it's been dark outside by the time I get off work and though I have several projects in mind, I haven't had the opportunity to start them!

Oh well, just thought I'd share - no hard feelings, nobody muddied anything of mine.  That's why I waited to get the whole thing done before I cut and pasted it here on BSB's. 

You think I'd have done all that research work for you guys

Just kidding, I probably would have if need be.

Take care and see ya on the other threads.

 

Paritur pax bello - Peace is obtained by war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 24mod12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2007 at 17:52
I'll stick with popular cartridges readily available in out of the way locations like a small hardware store in a really small town which doesn't stock things that few ask for.My needs are easily met since I stick with old popular ammo:30-06,300wm,243,45-70,etc.
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