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300 WSM vs. 300 Win. Mag.

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    Posted: 18 March 2005 at 09:19

The 300 Winchester Short Magnum VS. the 300 Winchester Magnum

 

Introduction

As I am in “need” of another rifle, I decided that the next one might possibly be a 300 magnum of some sort.  Having narrowed my choices down to either the 300 Winchester Short Magnum (300 WSM) or the 300 Winchester Magnum (300 Win. Mag.) I decided to do some research to see which one would be the “better” choice.  I did not forget about the 300 Short Action Ultra Mag (300 SAUM) being offered by Remington.  However, it appears by the lack of factory rifles chambered in this caliber - other than by Remington itself - the 300 SAUM may be headed for the graveyard of unsuccessful calibers. Little did I know of some of the surprises that my research would reveal. 

 

Ballistics

I first decided to take a look at the manufacturers’ published ballistics.  After all, aren’t ballistics what honestly separate one caliber from another whether it be on the range or in the field?  Seems to me it does. 

 

I searched the websites of Remington, Winchester, Hornady and Federal as they represent the largest segment of “factory” produced ammunition readily available to majority of shooters in the United States.  Each manufacturer has made available on their website ballistic charts for their loaded ammunition.  Taking this information and incorporating it into a spreadsheet I was able to note velocities, energy and trajectory for 16 different factory loadings for the 300 WSM and 39 different factory loadings for the 300 Win. Mag..  For each factory loaded bullet weight – which included 150, 165 and 180 grain bullets for the 300 WSM and 150, 165, 180 and 200 grain bullets for the 300 Win. Mag. – I ranked the different loadings in increasingly faster velocities and higher energies for 200 yards.  I arbitrarily picked 200 yards for two reasons.  First, the overwhelming majority of riflemen and hunters will keep their shots under 300 yards (and truth be told probably less than 100 yards), making 200 yards about as even a measuring point as one can expect for my research.  Second, the smaller segment of shooters and hunters who do exceed 300 yard shooting with regularity will most likely be using specialized equipment to include customized rifles and/or precision handloaded ammunition where factory ammo ballistics have less meaning.  As a result of this arbitrary 200 yard ranking of various factory loadings, I was able to rank them from “good” to “bad.”  I then got an “industry average” of each caliber’s ballistics grouped according to bullet weight. The “industry average” is just that - an average of all the loads Remington, Winchester, Hornady and Federal offer averaged together.  Certainly, there are factory loadings that are faster or slower, hit with more energy or less energy and experience quicker or slower bullet drop compared to the “industry average”.  However my intent was to see what the rifleman can expect should they be limited to only using factory ammunition.

 

150 gr. Factory Loads

There are currently three 150 grain factory loaded offerings available for the 300 WSM – two by Winchester and one by Federal.  The “industry average” ballistics are as follows: 


300 WSM Avg. Muzzle Velocity/Energy = 3257 fps/3533 ft-lbs.
300 WSM Avg. 100 Yard Velocity/Energy/Trajectory = 2978 fps/2956 ft-lbs./+1.2 in.
300 WSM Avg. 200 Yard Velocity/Energy/Trajectory = 2717 fps/2463 ft-lbs./0.0 in.
300 WSM Avg. 300 Yard Velocity/Energy/Trajectory = 2471 fps/2042 ft-lbs./-5.9 in.

300 WSM Avg. 400 yard Velocity/Energy/Trajectory = 2239 fps/1683 ft-lbs./-17.7 in.

300 WSM Avg. 500 Yard Velocity/Energy/Trajectory = 2022 fps/1380 ft-lbs/-36.6 in.

 

There are currently ten 150 grain factory loaded offerings available for the 300 Win. Mag – two by Winchester, two by Federal, three by Remington and three by Hornady.  One of the Remington offerings included a “Reduced Recoil” loading which was omitted as its velocity, energy and trajectory were inconsistent with other loadings by other manufacturers.  The “industry” average ballistics are as follows:

 

300 Win Mag. Avg. Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3279 fps/3582 ft-lbs.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2986 fps/2970 ft-lbs./+1.3 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2712 fps/2450 ft-lbs./+0.2 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2454 fps/2008 ft-lbs./-5.6 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2210 fps/1632 ft-lbs./-17.4 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1975 fps/1315 ft-lbs./-36.2 in.

 

It appears that the faster, more powerful and flatter shooting caliber when using 150 grain factory loaded cartridges is the 300 WSM, on average. 

 

There are a three important things I should note in regards to comparing the two calibers and their ballistics with 150 grain factory loaded ammunition.  First the dead on range for the 300 WSM was always 200 yards.  With, the 300 Win. Mag., both Remington and Winchester sighted in one of their 150 grain loadings at other distances.  This was a play on trajectory numbers by both manufacturers.  Riflemen who would only glance at the 500 yard bullet drop could be easily fooled into thinking that the less bullet drop could be attributed to the caliber and NOT the sight-in range.  It is understandable why Remington did this for their “Reduced Recoil” loading.  Why Winchester varied their dead-on ranges with one of their loads, the 150 gr. Super-X Power Point, to something other than 200 yards like other manufacturers as well as other loadings of their own is beyond me.  Second, at this time there are roughly three times more 300 Win. Mag. offerings made by commercial ammunition manufacturers than there are for the 300 WSM.  This play on numbers and variances between one manufacturer and the next surely affects the “industry average.”  Should manufacturers decide to load more for the 300 WSM then I expect these numbers to change.  Third, is in regards to the “best” and “worst” of each caliber’s factory ammunition.  The “best” factory loaded ammunition topped with 150 grain bullets for the 300 WSM showed more desirable ballistics than the “best” factory loaded 300 Win. Mag. ammunition loaded with 150 grain bullets, but only by a small margin – less than 50 fps difference in velocity, less than 60 ft-lbs in difference in energy and less than one inch in trajectory.  For the 300 WSM, the “best” was Winchester’s 150 grain Supreme Ballistic Silvertip:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3300 fps/ 3628 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 3061 fps/3121 ft-lbs./+1.1 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2834 fps/2676 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2619 fps/2285 ft-lbs./-5.4 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2414 fps/1941 ft-lbs./-15.9 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory =  2218 fps/1638 ft-lbs./-32.4 in.

 

For the 300 Win. Mag., the “best” was Hornady’s 150 grain SST:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3275 fps/3572 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 3032 fps/3061 ft-lbs./+1.1 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2802 fps/2615 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2584 fps/2223 ft-lbs./-5.6 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2375 fps/1879 ft-lbs./-16.4 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2177 fps/1578 ft-lbs./-33.4 in.

 

There were again small differences in the “worst” offerings made available by ammunition producers.  Except at the muzzle, the “worst” 300 Win. Mag. factory ammunition outperformed the “worst” 300 WSM factory ammunition loaded with 150 grain bullets.  Again, the margin was small, yet more significant than in the comparisons of the “best” factory ammunition for both calibers.  Velocity differences were 175 fps or less.  Energy differences were 208 ft-lbs or less.  Trajectory differences were 4 inches or less.  The 300 WSM factory ammunition that gave the slowest velocities, weakest energy and greatest bullet drop for 150 grain bullets was Winchester’s 150 gr. Super-X Power Point: 

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3270 fps/3561 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2903 fps/2807 ft-lbs./+1.3 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2565 fps/2190 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2250 fps/1686 ft-lbs./-6.6 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1958 fps/1277 ft-lbs./-20.2 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1692 fps/953 ft-lbs./-42.9 in.

 

The “worst” 300 Win. Mag factory ammunition that gave the slowest velocities, weakest energy and greatest bullet drop for 150 grain bullets was, without doubt, Remington’s 150 grain Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt Reduced Recoil loadings.  However, as this isn’t a “standard” offering but simply made for reduced recoil, it isn’t fair to rank it in this comparison so we move to the next factory offering which was Winchester’s 150 grain Supreme Fail Safe:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3260 fps/3539 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2943 fps/2884 ft-lbs./+1.3 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2647 fps/2334 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2370 fps/1871 ft-lbs./-6.2 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2110 fps/1483 ft-lbs./-18.7 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1867 fps/1161 ft-lbs./-38.9 in.

 

To summarize, if you compare the “best” 300 WSM 150 grain factory ammo with the “best” 300 Win. Mag. 150 grain factory ammo, there is little difference though the 300 WSM does come out on top as the “better” performer.  Yet, if you compare the “worst” 300 WSM factory loaded 150 grain ammo to the “worst” of the 300 Win. Mag. factory loaded 150 grain ammo, the 300 Win. Mag. comes out on top as the “better” performer and by a larger margin. 

 

165 gr. Factory Loads

There are currently three 165 grain factory loads for the 300 WSM – two from Federal and one from Winchester.  The “industry average” ballistics are as follows:

 

300 WSM Avg. Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3128 fps/3585 ft-lbs.

300 WSM Avg. 100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2881 fps/3040 ft-lbs./+1.3 in.

300 WSM Avg. 200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2647 fps/2568 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 WSM Avg. 300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2425 fps/2156 ft-lbs./-6.3 in.

300 WSM Avg. 400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2214 fps/1798 ft-lbs./-18.5 in.

300 WSM Avg. 500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2014 fps/1489 ft-lbs./-38.0 in.

 

There are currently seven 165 grain factory loads for the 300 Win. Mag – one from Winchester, three from federal and three from Hornady. The “industry average” ballistics are as follows:

 

300 Win. Mag. Avg. Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3904 fps/3508 ft-lbs.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2861 fps/2999 ft-lbs/+1.4 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2640 fps/2554 ft-lbs/0.0 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2429 fps/2165 ft-lbs/-6.4 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2229 fps/1824 ft-lbs./-18.7 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2039 fps/1528 ft-lbs./-38.4 in.

 

On average, it appears that the 300 WSM 165 grain factory loads outperform the 300 Win. Mag. 165 grain factory loads.  However, at ranges beyond 200 yards, the 300 Win. Mag. is the stronger performer.  So, it doesn’t appear there is any clearcut “winner” in this comparison over all ranges.  Regardless, the differences are subtle with no more than a 20 fps difference in velocity, no more than a 41 ft-lbs. difference in energy and less than 0.4 inch difference in bullet drop between the two. Unlike the 150 grain cartridge comparisons, all factory offerings had a “dead-on” range of 200 yards.  Also, there was less of a number play in this comparison than with the 150 grainers.  This time, there were seven 165 grain factory offerings for the 300 Win. Mag and three for the 300 WSM, which roughly means there were “only” twice as many offerings for the 300 Win. Mag. this time around instead of three times the number of offerings as last time.  Comparing the “best” performer of the 300 WSM 165 grain loadings with the “best” performer of the 300 Win. Mag. 165 grain loadings shows the 300 Win. Mag to be the better performer of the two by a small margin (less than 10 fps difference in velocity, less than 29 ft-lbs of energy, and less than 0.3 inches in bullet drop) as can be seen below.  For the 300 WSM, the “best” 165 grain load was Federal’s 165 grain Nosler Solid Base:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3130 fps/3589 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2904 fps/3090 ft-lbs./+1.3 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2690 fps/2651 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2486 fps/2263 ft-lbs./-6.1 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2290 fps/1921 ft-lbs./-17.8 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2104 fps/1621 ft-lbs./-36.3 in.

 

For the 300 Win. Mag., the “best” 165 grain load was Federal’s 165 grain Solid Base Boat Tail:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3140 fps/3612 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2914 fps/3112 ft-lbs./+1.3 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2700 fps/2671 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2496 fps/2282 ft-lbs./-6.1 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2300 fps/1938 ft-lbs./-17.7 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2114 fps/1637 ft-lbs./-36.0 in.

 

Different results can be found when comparing the “worst” of each caliber’s available factory ammunition.  In this instance, the 300 WSM is the better performer.  Interestingly the “worst” performers for both calibers are made by the same manufacturer – Winchester.  I find it especially interesting that the same exact bullet in different calibers, produced by the exact same manufacturer can produce these differences.  Winchester shows a relatively significant difference between its two offerings.  There’s as much as 134 fps velocity difference, 178 ft-lbs of energy difference and 3.0 inches in bullet drop difference.  Furthermore, this same load, Winchester’s Supreme Fail Safe, was also the weakest performer for the 150 grain 300 Win. Mag. comparison.  Specifics of these two “worst” performers by Winchester can be found below.  The “worst” 165 grain factory loaded performer for the 300 WSM was Winchester’s 165 grain Supreme Fail Safe:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3125 fps/3577 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2846 fps/2967 ft-lbs./+1.4 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2584 fps/2446 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2336 fps/1999 ft-lbs./-6.6 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2102 fps/1619 ft-lbs./-19.6 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1882 fps/1298 ft-lbs./-40.6 in.

 

The “worst” 165 grain factory loaded performer for the 300 Win. Mag was Winchester’s Supreme Fail Safe:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3120 fps/3567 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2807 fps/2888 ft-lbs./+1.5 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2515 fps/2319 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2242 fps/1842 ft-lbs/-7.0 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1985 fps/1445 ft-lbs./-20.9 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1748 fps/1120 ft-lbs./-43.6 in.

 

180 gr. Factory Loads

There are currently ten 300 WSM factory loads 180 grain bullets on the market today.  The 300 WSM 180 grain loads include four from Winchester and six from Federal.  The “industry average” is as follows:

 

300 WSM Avg. Muzzle Vel./Energy = 2979 fps/3547 ft-lbs

300 WSM Avg. 100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2748 fps/3021 ft-lbs./+1.6 in.

300 WSM Avg. 200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2530 fps/2567 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 WSM Avg. 300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2323 fps/2174 ft-lbs./-7.1 in.

300 WSM Avg. 400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2129 fps/1836 ft-lbs./-20.9 in.

300 WSM Avg. 500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1949 fps/1548 ft-lbs./-42.8 in.

 

The ten 300 Win. Mag 180 grain loads include two from Winchester, two from Federal, three from Remington and three from Hornady.  The “industry average” is as follows:

 

300 Win. Mag. Avg. Muzzle Vel./Energy = 2986 fps/3564 ft-lbs.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2742 fps/3063 ft-lbs/+1.7 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2561 fps/2622 ft-lbs./+0.2 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2363 fps/2233 ft-lbs./-6.5 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2174 fps/1892 ft-lbs./-17.8 in.

300 Win. Mag. Avg. 500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1994 fps/1593 ft-lbs/-39.9 in.

 

Based off the “industry average” it appears the 300 Win. Mag. is the better performer with 180 grain bullets than the 300 WSM.  Again, this is not by a large margin.  Velocity differences between the 300 Win. Mag. and 300 WSM were less than 45 fps.  Energy differences were less than 59 ft-lbs.  Trajectory differences were less than 3.1 inches.  This time around, it was solely Remington who made their “dead-on” range something other than 200 yards.  Again, why they did this is questionable.  Another interesting note is that there were just as many 300 WSM offerings with 180 grain bullets as there were 300 Win. Mag. offerings – ten each.  Comparing the “best” 300 WSM performer with the “best” 300 Win. Mag. performer showed that up to 300 yards, the 300 WSM was a better performer but beyond that the 300 Win.Mag. was the better choice.  Out of the ten 300 WSM 180 grain factory loaded offerings, the Winchester Supreme 180 grain Accubond CT gave the most impressive ballistics:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3010 fps/3622 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2822 fps/3185 ft-lbs./+1.4 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2643 fps/2792 ft-lbs./0.0 in.
300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2470 fps/2439 ft-lbs./-6.4 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2304 fps/2121 ft-lbs./-18.5 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory =  2144 fps/1837 ft-lbs./-37.2 in.

 

For the 300 Win. Mag, the “best” performer out of the ten factory offerings was Winchester’s 180 grain Supreme Partition Gold:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 3070 fps/3768 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2859 fps/3267 ft-lbs./+1.4 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2657 fps/2823 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2464 fps/2428 ft-lbs./-6.3 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2280 fps/2078 ft-lbs./-18.3 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2103 fps/1768 ft-lbs./-37.1 in.

 

Similar results can be found when comparing the “worst” 180 grain factory offerings for the 300 WSM and 300 Win. Mag. At the muzzle, the “worst” 300 WSM loading seems to outperform the 300 Win. Mag.’s “worst.”  However, this is short lived as from 100-500 yards the 300 Win. Mag. is by a large margin the better performer with as much as 594 fps more velocity, 705 ft-lbs. more energy and 25.6 inches less bullet drop than the 300 WSM.  Why this Federal loading is so grossly unrepresentative of the rest of the 300 WSM’s 180 grain offerings remains to be seen.

 

The “worst” factory offering in 180 grains for the 300 WSM was Federal’s 180 grain Soft Point:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 2970 fps/3525 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2520 fps/2539 ft-lbs./+2.0 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2113 fps/1784 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1747 fps/1219 ft-lbs./-9.9 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1431 fps/819 ft-lbs./-31.5 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1189 fps/565 ft-lbs./-71.0 in.

 

The “worst” factory offering in 180 grains for the 300 Win. Mag. was Federal’s 180 grain Nosler Partition loading:

 

Muzzle Vel./Energy = 2960 fps/3502 ft-lbs.

100 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2697 fps/2906 ft-lbs./+1.6 in.

200 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2448 fps/2395 ft-lbs./0.0 in.

300 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 2213 fps/1957 ft-lbs./-7.5 in.

400 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory = 1991 fps/1585 ft-lbs./-22.1 in.

500 Yard Vel./Energy/Trajectory =  1783 fps/1270 ft-lbs./-45.4 in.

 

200 gr. Factory Loads

At this time, there are only 200 grain factory loads for the 300 Win. Mag. and only three of them at that.  There are no 200 grain factory loads for the 300 WSM.  Whether this will change in the future is unknown.  As such, there was no basis of comparison for 200 grain loads between the two calibers.

 

Reloading

 

Of course, many of us roll our own ammunition for our rifles, myself included.  Therefore, some research on reloading for the 300 WSM and 300 Win. Mag. is warranted. 

 

Reload Ballistics and Pressure Considerations

The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute (SAAMI) gives every cartridge a maximum average pressure rating given in pounds per square inch (PSI).  There is a small difference between the 300 WSM and the 300 Win. Mag. For the 300 WSM, SAAMI has a maximum average pressure rating of 65,000 PSI and the 300 Win. Mag. has 64,000 PSI rating.  I examined the estimated pressures of different loads for both calibers using Hodgdon’s and IMR’s online data available through their website. 

 

Between these two manufacturers, there were seven ratings for 150 grain 300 WSM loads and 13 for the 300 Win. Mag.. Charges for the 300 WSM 150 grain loads ranged from 51.0 – 70.0 grains, depending upon powder, and gave pressures ranging from 53,400 – 63,800 PSI.  Charges for the 300 Win. Mag. 150 grain loads ranged from 35.6 – 85.0 grains with pressures ranging from 46,260 – 54,000 PSI.  It appears that with 150 grain loads, the 300 WSM starts out with roughly the same amount of pressure that the 300 Win. Mag. tops out with.  Velocities averaged from 2972 – 3174 fps and ranged from 2907 – 3240 fps for the 300 WSM’s 150 grain loads.  Velocities averaged from 2821 – 3134 fps and ranged from 2331 – 3365 fps for the 300 Win. Mag’s 150 grain loads.  For sure, the 300 Win. Mag. has a longer history of reloading but it still has listings which outperform the 300 WSM by a small margin.

 

I also examined the 165 grain load data for both calibers between the two aforementioned manufacturers.  The 300 WSM had seven loads listed.  Charges for 165 grain loads ranged from 51.0 – 67.0 grains depending on the powder with pressures ranging from 54,000 – 63,200 PSI.  Charges for the 300 Win. Mag. 165 grain loads ranged from 64.4 – 79.3 grains and pressures ranging from 54,000 – 61,000 PSI.  Unlike the 150 grain loadings, the pressures between the two calibers with 165 grain loads are similar.  For the 300 WSM, velocities averaged between 2839 – 3028 fps and ranged from 2763 – 3080 fps.  Velocities averaged from 2796 – 3107 fps and ranged from 2790 – 3110 fps for the 300 Win. Mag..   Again, the 300 Win. Mag.’s listed reload velocities are faster than the 300 WSM albeit by a small margin. 

 

Finally, I compared the 300 WSM 180 grain listed reloads with those of the 300 Win. Mag..  For the 300 WSM, there were six listed loads with charges ranging from 57.0 – 70.0 grains depending on the powder used.  Generated pressures ranged from 52,000 – 64,000 PSI.  For the 300 Win. Mag., charges ranged from 55.8 – 89.0 grains with pressures ranging from 38,900 – 61,000 PSI.  It is obvious that with 180 grain loads, the 300 WSM generates higher pressures than the 300 Win. Mag..  For the 300 WSM projected velocities averaged between 2735 – 2939 fps and ranged 2643 – 2970 fps.  The 300 Win. Mag.’s 180 grain loads velocities averaged 2646 – 2940 fps and ranged 2561 – 3042 fps.  For 180 grain loads, average velocities for both calibers were similar.  However slightly higher velocities were listed within the range of the 300 Win. Mag. 

 

Case Capacities

The 300 WSM has a case capacity in the range of 79.0 – 82.6 grains and the 300 Win. Mag. has a case capacity in the range of 88.0 – 90.4 grains of water (depending on whose numbers you go by).  Regardless, it is obvious that the 300 Win. Mag. has a greater capacity than the 300 WSM.  On average, the 300 Win. Mag has around 8 more grains of case capacity than the 300 WSM. 

 

Rifles

Finally, we come down to the rifles themselves.  I examined the websites of Browning, CZ-USA, Howa, Kimber, Ruger, Remington, Sako, Savage, Tikka, Weatherby and Winchester to see what bolt action rifles they had currently available for the 300 WSM and the 300 Win. Mag..  For the 300 WSM, there are currently 67 different models available from these manufacturers.  For the 300 Win. Mag., there are currently 43 different models currently available.  As can be expected, the number of models available will vary from year to year but I was more interested in seeing the differences in weight, length and price between the two calibers.

 

I suspected that there would be a difference in weight between rifles chambered in different calibers, especially since the 300 WSM is a “short action” chambering and the 300 Win. Mag is a “long action” chambering.  Indeed there was a difference.  There were 34 models offered by manufacturers that were chambered in both the 300 WSM and the 300 Win. Mag.  Of those, there was a difference in weight for 25 of those models. In other words, roughly 74% of same models varied in weight from one chambering to another.  The differences in weight could be attributed to such things as shorter action and shorter barrels.  However, nine models showed no difference in weight and there were five models in which the 300 WSM was actually heavier!  Browning’s A-Bolt M-1000 Eclipse chambered in 300 WSM is listed as being heavier than it’s 300 Win. Mag. version equipped with a BOSS device.  Similarly, Weatherby showed a consistent 4 oz. weight difference between four of its models:  the Vanguard Sporter, Vanguard Sporter SS, Vanguard Sub-MOA matte and the Vanguard Sub-MOA stainless.  For all four of these rifles the 300 WSM weighed more.  The lightest 300 WSM was the Browning A-Bolt  Titanium which was listed as weighing 5 lbs. 8 oz..  The heaviest 300 WSM listing was Savage’s 12 BVSS which came in at 10 lbs..  For the 300 Win. Mag., the lightest listing was Tikka’s T3 Lite and Lite Stainless which weighed 6 lbs 6 oz. each.  The heaviest 300 Win. Mag listing was again Savage’s 12 BVSS which weighed 10 lbs. 4 oz.  So, it appears that the notion that the 300 WSM is always lighter than the 300 Win. Mag. in your favorite model rifle isn’t necessarily true.  If weight is a consideration, you might want to check the weight of the 300 WSM compared to the 300 Win. Mag. as only Howa’s 1500 Lightning Rifle and Hunter Rifle, Ruger’s M77 Mark II All Weather, Tikka’s T3 Battue, T3 Battue Lite, T3 Varmint, and T3 Varmint Stainless, Weatherby’s Vanguard Synthetic and Vanguard Stainless showed no difference in weight between the 300 WSM and 300 Win. Mag.. 

 

Prices varied extremely.  Suffice it to say that one can find one chambering at a comparable price to the other.  In fact, the only company which had a Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) that varied in price from the 300 WSM to the 300 Win. Mag. in the exact same model rifle was Winchester.  All other manufacturers had the same price for either caliber.  Winchester’s Model 70 Classic Stainless in 300 Win. Mag. was listed as being $18 higher than the WSM version.   Yet in the Model 70 Classic Super Grade III the 300 WSM was $31 higher than the standard mag version.  Why this is the case remains to be seen.  The lowest MSRP for the 300 WSM found was for Weatherby’s Vanguard Synthetic at $476 whereas for the 300 Win. Mag., it was Remington’s 710 at $426.  The highest MSRP for the 300 WSM found was for Kimber’s 8400 Super America at $1,799 whereas for the 300 Win. Mag., it was Weatherby’s Mark V Ultralight at $1,752.  Based on these findings, it appears that there’s no discernible difference in price to warrant the purchase of one caliber over another.  

 

Conclusions

This whole little study has been quite an undertaking!  I’ve looked at enough websites to make a man go blind.  But, it has put to rest some misconceptions I’ve had about the 300 WSM and the 300 Win. Mag.

 

Comparing factory ammunition ballistics has shown that there’s little difference between the two calibers.  At shorter ranges or with lighter bullets, the 300 WSM might be the better choice.  At longer ranges or with heavier bullets, the 300 Win. Mag. might be the better choice.  There isn’t a huge difference one way or the either when comparing, on average, the velocity, energy or trajectory of either caliber. 

 

Considering reloading aspects, there’s small differences between the two.  The 300 WSM definitely generates more pressure than the 300 Win. Mag. whether using 150, 165 or 180 grain bullets.  How this affects barrel life is an entirely different debate but I’m sure the higher pressures promote quicker wear.  Whether this wear is significant or not is another study!  The 300 Win. Mag.’s reload history shows it to be a higher performer than the 300 WSM but that’s probably to be expected.  Give the 300 WSM as long a life as the 300 Win. Mag. and I’m sure we’ll probably be looking at higher velocities and energies as well as flatter trajectories in the reload manuals of 2050.  For sure, the 300 Win. Mag. has a higher case capacity.  Yet, the smaller, fatter 300 WSM appears to have some sort of attribute to obtain the velocities it shouldn’t be seeing in a conventionally sized 300 Win. Mag. case with the same amount of powder and same projectile.

 

As far as rifles go, that’s entirely up to the purchaser.  There’s one for every style, weight, and price that pulls on the rifleman’s heart.  For sure, in these “early years” of the 300 WSM, there appears to be plenty of offerings available and even more than the classic 300 Win. Mag..  But, surely there’s one model out there that tickles each gunner’s fancy.

 

The bottom line for me is this.  I don’t think that the 300 WSM is a huge advancement in ballistics for a 30 caliber magnum.  For sure, the 300 Win. Mag. and it’s kin have, can and will outperform the 300 WSM or at least perform as well.  Though there are some legitimate reasons to purchase a 300 WSM, depending on your tastes, wallet, ballistic needs and so on, I’ll be sticking with the 300 Win. Mag..  Now, as for the other WSM’s, I don’t know.  I think I may look into a 7 WSM for a lightweight western rifle. Ha!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasunkaWitko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2005 at 10:24
WOW~

i would call that "serious research!"
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LOL, I have a notebook with entries very similar to yours, that's why, when someone brings up the limp wristed cartridges, it's nap time for me....................................Kingpin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2005 at 12:29

From someone's who had both...

   I didn't see any more accuracy in my ruger 300 win mag, that I do my 300WSM abolt.

  Major differences..

1)  Capacity is shorter on the WSM side with 200 grain bullets, 220's aren't even recommend as far as I know.

2)  WSM's do use a bit less powder to get the same speed on the rest of the spectrum.

3)  WSM's tend to like 165-189's and 125 grain bullets, period.

4)  Barnes Triple shock was made specifically for the twist of a WSM barrel.

5)  Norma brass accepts 2-3 grains less powder in a wsm because of an extra thick web... in the WSM that matters.

6)  Because they' short and fat any F'n up on re-assembly makes more of a differnce with feeding than in a 300wsm.

7) The kick with a WSM is just a bit less in duration than a 300 win mag. (not many would notice)

8)  Every Tom Dick and Harry will come out of the wood work to Fuck with you because you have a WSM.  I say they can kiss my ass...  It's just a bonus.  Specifically remy guy's who are sore about Remington's Ultra mag's (long & short) not getting adopted. LOL!  sound like anyone we all know and love!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tj3006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2005 at 15:41

Well mountaineer.

      I may be aquiring a 300 mag this weekend. The one thing that really sets 1 apart from the other to me is the 200 grain bullet thing. I am trying to be practicle here. What do you plan to hunt with your 300. You have a 270 for deer and such. If as it seems to me your 300 is for bigger stuf , why bother with 150s. I might consider a 165 but for Elk I can't really see using anything lighter than 180. And for mose or if you are hunting in a area where you might meet up witha griz. I think the 200, is the way to go. 

    Now to put away the practicle thing, I will take the 300 win just cause it works. Now If I find a Kimber 300wsm or somthing like that real cheap , I would probably jump on it.

     But I buy magnums for POWER. And 300 win with a 200 grain bullet has more power than anything you might shoot in a 300wsm.

    By the way who shoots factory ammo anyway ?    ...tj3006

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2005 at 16:12

4)  Barnes Triple shock was made specifically for the twist of a WSM barrel.

 

What is the twist in a .300wsm? My .300 Win Mags are 1 in 10 and shoot as straight as the road to hell. Pray tell,what is that magical rate that makes the wsm less potent, more efficient, and politically correct?

7) The kick with a WSM is just a bit less in duration than a 300 win mag. (not many would notice)

All recoil is relative (see Sir Isaak Newtons Laws of Physics) If you are buying something that shoots the same diameter projectile and has less "kick" you are buying a placebo.

8)  Every Tom Dick and Harry will come out of the wood work to Fuck with you because you have a WSM.  I say they can kiss my ass...  It's just a bonus. 

Well if that isn't "feel good" justification, I'm not sure what is. If you have it, like it, and shoot it, then do it. Nothing will ever make it as legendary as the .30 Newton, the ,30 Adolph, the .300 H&H, the .300 Win Mag, or the .300 Wby. Only time does that. The popcorn fart cartridges are only legends in their own mind and the rag writers who tout them......LOL.........................Kingpin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2005 at 16:53

King, King, King....

#4.. Go do some reading at Barnes site.

#5..  Hmmm... 10% less powder, did you read Hatchers notes, the forward movement of the powder is counted just like the grains of the bullet because it moves... OH WAIT, Wait now.. In a WSM it doesn't move.. and it's less by 7 grains... so I agree with you physics' is right.. you did miscalc just a bit though.

#8  Your in good company here, Even Old Ken Howell thinks the short mag's are bull hockey.. to hell with the equations they really aren't worth anything.  Huh...   I have to agree with you here too, not much more than a popcorn fart, reality is no critter alive would know the difference if hit by a WSM or a win mag. 

    Aside from the above I do find it interesting that all the guy's who praise the stronger action of the short 308 don't give that same credit to the 300short's.  Or as I mentioned above the powder weight in the recoil equation.  Sometimes it's just easier to be old, especially when your old enough to see that it hasn't changed the results worth spending the $$ to get that new sexy alphabet soup rifle. 

  At least we all get to bitch about it though, that's really the fun part.     

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2005 at 17:20

You still didn'tanswer the question.

)  Barnes Triple shock was made specifically for the twist of a WSM barrel.

 

What is the twist in a .300wsm? My .300 Win Mags are 1 in 10 and shoot as straight as the road to hell. Pray tell,what is that magical rate that makes the wsm less potent, more efficient, and politically correct?

Well, at least you didn't say that it was faster than a .300 Win Mag and hit harder than a .338, so, I guess that's an admission of sorts. As far as the alphabet soup goes, I am still strong enough to carry those overweight cartridges in my pockets. When I get too old for that, I'll buy an ATV with a cartridge box bolted to it and just drink the alphabed soup out of the thermos. As for the research on these limp wrist rounds, I saw, and still don't see anything practical about them. Saving 7 grains of powder? There are times when frugality becomes nothing more than being cheap. I suppose that I like burning large amounts of powder and cost doesn't enter in to it...................Kingpin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2005 at 18:20

Lots of data there, MOUNTAINEER.  Should be able to make an educated decision from all of that.  Good luck to ya.

I just don't see a whole heck of a lot of difference between these two cartridges.  I really liked my .300 WinMag when I owned it but the 7mm STW bug bite and it had to go.  I've no doubt I'd enjoy working with a .300 WSM, too.  They just look like two cartridges that do pretty much the same thing.  And both being able to do it real well.

SS, ya have no need justifying why you chose a WSM.  You did.  End of story.  Ya have ample power and, from what I understand, none of the WSM rounds are lacking in the accuracy department.  The way I see it, you're no less prepared for a hunt then if you'd have choosen a WinMag.  Different strokes to accomplish the same end result.  Shoot the hell out of the damn thing and enjoy.  >>  klallen 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 00:27

Good study Mountaineer.

My brother bought the 270 WSM, counter to my advise.  He presently likes it.  He has had accuracy problems.  I suggested he get base line data by shooting a box of factories, so we went to Gander Mountain.  WOW- - - - - -that shit is expensive.

Maybe the reason that so many older shooters don't like the WSM, is because it really isn't much different than the existing cartridges. BUT the manufacturers and their scribes are saying the WSMs are great.  People don't like being lied to.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 02:46

"Maybe the reason that so many older shooters don't like the WSM, is because it really isn't much different than the existing cartridges."

You might be on to something BEAR.  Although, I think a lot of older shooters don't like the WSM's simply because they're being pains in the ass about the whole thing, not to put to fine a point on it.

Ya know, I personally believe that .300 WinMag performance is plenty for 90 - 95% of the big game animals on earth.  That is impressive when ya think about it and a testament to a great cartridge.  However, I don't really see why that level of performance has to come from a .300 WinMag to be accepted.  We don't find fault with a guy striving for this level of performance, but the second he gets it from something other then a WinMag, it's taboo.  That's what I find funny about WSM criticism.  I agree that the WSM isn't any different then the WinMag.  But when did that turn into a bad thing?  On the converse side of that, it certainly isn't any worse, from a performance perspective.  The majority of the folks on boards like this who are consumed by this hobby of ours don't buy into gun mag hype.  They buy things that they want to work with that will offer them a desired level of performance.  That's it.  Yet no matter who ya are or the experience you have, if you own something new, you've somehow been dooped.  SS's example makes the point perfectly.  For some reason, he's to feel "less" because he owns a WSM rather then a WinMag.  That seems utterly rediculous, when in the end, the cartridges accomplish the same damn thing in the field.  I don't know how many times I've heard it said the WinMag's better then the WSM simply because of the "been there, done that" mentality.  Simply because it's been taken game for over 40 years.  But for some reason, folks easily forget there was a time when the WinMag was the new kid on the block with no history to speak of.  Offering little over the already existing H&H and nothing over the WbyMag.  Even so, it was a great cartridge the moment it came out because of the performance level it achieved.  It's a great cartridge today for the same reason.  Same goes for the WSM.  I couldn't care less about short fat cases, less powder used or if it offers nothing over the WinMag.  Bottom line is, it was a great cartridge the day it came out in '00 because of the performance level it achieved.  Will it survive for 40+ years?  None of us know.  I personally think it's got as good a shot as any.  Assuming it does, it'll be just as great cartridge in 2045 (assuming we're still hunting then   ) because of it's performance.

I guess I've just never understood the aversion to the new.  I mean, I can appreciate holding on to the older cartidges of old that perform well for ya but good grief.  I'm in the same boat.  I'll never trade my .243 Win (1955) for one of these new .243 WSSM's, but I certainly don't feel threatened by it's creation.  Matter of fact, I'm all for it.  Reading the posts of folks who get so bent out of shape because of something new hitting the market always puts a smile on my face.  Seems like a lot of wasted energy.  We can bitch all we like, but we'll never stop development.  Understand, I'm certainly not speaking directly towards you, BEAR.  Just a general observation of things read over the last couple years.  Take it easy.  >>  klallen

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     The reason i prefer the 300 win over the 300 WSM is just than the 300 wsm is trying to build a better mouse trap and then trying to convince us its better. When truth is, it is almost as good. With lighter bullets it is the equal but with heavy bullets the old timer comes out on top. If I found a 300wsm rifle that I just really liked , and it was a great deal I would probably buy it. But I see no advantage in the wsm . I don't give a hoot in hell about a half inch shorter action shorter duration of recoil or any of the tecnichal horse pucky. I want power and accuracy in a rifle I can be proud to own. And a good 300 win is about as top notch for such stuff as any thing...tj3006 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 03:38

King,

     Great Googly Moogly MAN!  You make me want to get the word alphabet soup engraved on my Browning bolt... (they do that ya know) 

On avoiding the question... HOW DARE YOU!, I Can't beleive you said that!   WHAT NERVE!   I'm not a teacher, your just gonna have to go find this stuff for yourself there king... (that is after your done havin' fun givin' me all this shit  ). 

The Quote I mentioned came from one of those trade rag guy's... who happened to talk with the barnes folks (i.e. a Barnes Exec said it).  Although, some of my information does come directly from the guys' I shoot with from the hogden powder test lab, this one was off of one of Jamison's articles (for shame).  BTW- one of the Hogdon guy's told me that the Nosler 200 grain accubond shoot "like they're on a path straight to hell" in the 300wsm.  I should move up to them instead of the 180's I'm using.  (Wait I've got 50 test strings on my bench... I guess I'm doing that already)

   Hey have you tried Barnes triple shocks in your 300 Mag?????   This would be an interesting experiment now wouldn't it...  What is your Twist rate.. the older remy 1:12 or the new 1:10? ? ? 

   Well not that you already don't know this... Browning/Winchester (the priemer quality ammo makers in the US) use 1:10,  and NOW remington does too... Although some older Remy's used 1:12... which is tooooo sloooowwww for longer lead free spears.

OH SHIT... Look what I also found on Barnes site... They've gone and made a bullet for the 325 WSM...    

325 WSM 8 MM

  Diameter Weight Description S.D. B.C. CAT#
NEW .323" 180 gr. TSX BT .246 . 32306

    Don't worry king they won't stop making 300 Win Brass. 

But now that I'm done screwing around... some straight talk.  I think that WSM's have a better potential for accuracy tha 300 Win Mag's in a specific range of bullets weight.  That would be the ones' I mentioned, past that the 300 Win Mag has more flexibility.

BTW you rusty old fart... I've got a question for you... is it really a fair fight when a smith starts comparing his tweaked out Remy to an off the shelf Browning... hmmm... Somethin' smells fishy in denmark.  (as you can tell the straight talk is now overs..      

P.S. ... for those who don't know King hates these God Damn smilies.

Cya Brother... Keep Shoot'n straight

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 04:09
I don't think that ANYBODY feels threatened by the new "gunwriters specials." The point being is that when comparisons are made, facts are made up to suit the owners, or quotes from the outhouse wall scribes are parroted. Will they kill what they are designed to kill? Probably. Are they in fact better? Probably not. Now the new term being used....gap filler. Filling what gap? If a .300 WinMag can kill everything from a ground hog to black bear consistantly, what gaps exactly does it need to kill? It has been pointed out, without any facts to back it up, that the WSM's are winning matches. Where? It has been pointed out that the WSM has special bullets built for it's unique twist. What is so unique about it? While I have shot it, and most of its ilk, I see no reason to jump on one because of its "unique," "gap filling," "short," "fat," and "just wonderful" bullshit rumor mill. For the most part, gun writers are nothing more than whores, who ply their trade to the gun industry and are willing to say and do anything to get their hands on the newest offerings I am a collector of sorts of guns and gun literature. I don't remember this much smoke and mirrors EVER beng generated for new calibers. One of the main problems today is the internet, and its access to millions of people.  That being said, it is possible for someone from Outer Mongolia to insult the intelligence of someone in West Texas with relative immunity. Poimt being that the numbnut doesn't need to provide proof of anything he said, he needs only to say it with whatever authority he feels is necessary. Now, realizing that it is a lot like comparing apples with bananas, I have a .300 Win Mag that I will gladly take any of the .300 WSM shooters to a 1000 yd range with their rifles, and allow them to beat me if, they are able, and can see that far. On the other hand, I also have a .300 Win Mag hunting rifle that the same conditions will apply, for a little off hand match at 500 yds. We'll shoot as many rounds as the challenger wants, as the "kick" from my rifles doose not bother me in the least, I don't rely on brakes, and I generally have a lot of fun shooting WITH someone. Postal matches won't apply here. Live, in person, shooting will be the only thing recognized. Now, just as sure as the outer mongolian has commando'ed his way into West Texas, I have the rifles and the means to PROVE what I am talking about. As I said in the past, if you like it, shoot it. It doesn't really mean anything in the real world when there are so many other legendary cartridges that feel NO need to fill any gaps, rely on bullshit writers to make their inroads into the gun world, and generally out perform the new upstarts.  "Just a general observation of things read over the last couple of years.".....................................Kingpin
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New cartridges always have lots of hype.  And the mfgs know velocity sells.

I'm surprised that they are tryiing to sell the velocity, which isn't significant.  I think the lack of the belt is a better selling point and improved accuracy if it is indeed better, the short action, the sharper shoulder, and it's cute fat ass.  If the mfg would say that ....great.   

I hate to break anyones bubble, but the 270 and the 243 were not overnight sales sucesses nor did the "experienced guys" of their day think highly of them.  I remember when I bought my 243, the older guys were saying: "It can't hold a candle to the 257 Roberts as a combo varmit deer rifle"  and "it isn't any good for deer and bear 'cause you can only shoot 100 grain pills".  But the mfg. and the gun writers keep saying it was the ultimate all round rifle. 

43 years ago, I bought my 243 Sako, it is a good cartridge and I still have it.  Just got back from the range with it.  But after 40+ years of shooting, hunting, and reloading for the 243 win I can say:  "it isn't as good  big game rifle as my 257, and it still sufferer from failure to shoot anything bigger then 100 grain bullets."  I did try some special 105 grain Speers about 20 years ago.

New doesn't make it better nor worse.  Kallen I agree with most of what you said.  Especially that a cartridge that I like need not be great to others...it only has to be great to me.  That is the whole reason that you, me and others buy "our" stuff.

I guess I disagree with your comment "Bottom line is, it was a great cartridge the day it came out in '00 because of the performance level it achieved."  That is the standard magazine hype line.  and what Mountaineer research shows is it isn't an improvement in performance level...just average.  Average at anything doesn't make it a " a great cartridge".  

BEAR

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 05:38

Wholly crap king...

Now reading that much BLOCK text isn't any fun...

Give me some white space.

I'll have to read that when I get more time, my beer's goin' flat and than new weber grill is begg'n for some steaks...

eye-yi-eye.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 11:29

Spot,   ok,   I   will   type  slow   because   you   can't   read   very fast.    What   is   the   magical    twist    that   requires    tripple   shock     bullets?    YOU    still    haven't answered   the    question.     Are    they     specially    designed    to    subsidize    their     being     aneimic    and     expand    better     at lower     velocities?     It    would    make   sense    in    that   respect.    I    know    that    you    are    not     a     teacher     because    of    your    inability     to    read    my    posts,     and    since    I     have    no    need    to    go    to    the    Barnes    site     since     I    don't     use     their    product     here    or    at   work,    I    thought    you    could    back    up    your     claim    with    facts,    but    I    see    you    don't    have   any...........K....i....n....g....p... .i....n

 

 

 

There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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** The RockChucker **

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klallen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 13:11

Evening BEAR  >>  Do you consider the .300 WinMag to be a great cartridge?  Or is it just average?  I guess this is the crux of the arguement.

Just to be clear, my comments were made with the assumption that the .300 WinMag did fall under the classification of a "great" cartridge.  We'll delve into the reality of my "magazine hype line" once I see the answers to the above questions.  Later.  >>  klallen   

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 14:00

King stop studder'n when you type, LOL!

   Now king, I like just fine the way you are, why in the world would I want to teach, change or otherwise alter the way you see things.

   So.. are you really telling me that you don't know that the spin required to stabolize a longer bullet is higher than a short bullet?  Maybe it was the deal that a triple shock is NOT lead so it's lighter and therefore to be the same weight they are longer than their lead equals. 

    So what's the problem? 

Spot

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingpin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2005 at 14:15

 So.. are you really telling me that you don't know that the spin required to stabolize a longer bullet is higher than a short bullet?

We both know that that was never in question. YOU made those claims about special bullets for the unique twist. That was what I asked about. Now, the way you answer questions (by diverting the fact that you refuse to answer questions) is to ask ridiculous questions in return. As I read through this thread a few times, I notice that I am not the only one wondering when you can factually lay these claims to rest. Now, in Jim Carmichaels words, or Barnes words, or any of a hundred full of shit writers words, or possibly even a quote from a misinformed neighbor, make at least a feeble attempt to add creedence to what you said.

 

.......... I've got a question for you... is it really a fair fight when a smith starts comparing his tweaked out Remy to an off the shelf Browning... hmmm... Somethin' smells fishy in denmark

We both know that the majority of my rifles for hunting and target shooting are custom jobs, so that was never a topic. I didn't do anything to my .300's to bake them shoot faster, farther, or hit harder than they were designed. So, aside from better barrels, triggers, and stocks, they are nothing more than good looking and operating .300 Win Mags, what's your point? Aside to divert attention from the main topic, a legitimate question. If something smell fishy, it's your elusive non-answers.....................Kingpin

There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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